First Contact incidental music

[tharpdevenport]

I've been meaning to pop in the TFF score CD, but while I have no inside information, I got a feeling the complete score will be released later this year, so I've been holding out.

 

[FormerLurker]

It's entirely possible Horner forgot what he had done before, and recycled it because the tonal progression sounded good to him. I'm not saying this is the case, but remember, he's said in interviews that he would never do Star Trek again because he's "Moved beyond that, now."

Horner can produce great music. He just doesn't do so consistently. And the reuse again and again of theme after theme back in the '80's was because so many directors just had to have his music in their movie.

 

[trevanian]

It's entirely possible Horner forgot what he had done before, and recycled it because the tonal progression sounded good to him. I'm not saying this is the case, but remember, he's said in interviews that he would never do Star Trek again because he's "Moved beyond that, now."

Horner can produce great music. He just doesn't do so consistently. And the reuse again and again of theme after theme back in the '80's was because so many directors just had to have his music in their movie.

No, his best stuff is all lifts from other folks, mainly Goldsmith. He got tons of work because he used to work cheap and his music sounded like what directors temp-tracked their movies with (Tubular Bells is a popular one, and he hit that with all his then-contemporary action scores.)

I thought he finally got original with GLORY but later found out it is all swiped too (source on that is Pete Briggs, a screenwriter who is a real score buff.)

 

[trevanian]

It ain't a matter of timing; ALL of Horner's stuff sounds the same. COMMANDO and 48HRS and GORKYPARK are all the same basic rip-off-TUBULAR BELLS-number; action in KHAN and WOLFEN and ALIENS are the same prettymuch; he steals the same classical piece used in 2001 for the end of ALIENS, a remote assassination in PATRIOT GAMES, and a few other flicks.

And in identifying the Goldsmith stuff, it is all his TMP theme; different and worse orchestration, but it is the same piece.

If you listen to the music that occurs between the first two shots by the Reliant when Spock and Kirk were discussing the damage from the first shot, it is the same as a the middle section of Shad's Pursuit from Battle Beyond the Stars (Horner's first movie.) It is also similar to something he then did in Cocoon.

All contemporary film composers have their motifs or borrow from other composers, to varying degrees, depending on their individual predilections; older composers did as well, but the better ones, like Dimitri Tiomkin and Miklos Rosza just seemed better at it.

Horner gets picked on so much because he's not as nimble about recycling, but compare Goldsmith's Klingon theme to the first few notes in the earlier "The Wind and the Lion."

You could compare it to the Indian music in BREAKHEART PASS and get a lot closer, but still Goldsmith is often just cycling bits, not whole passages, and using them in different ways.

Why Horner didn't get massacred for all of his first dozen scores still stuns me ... all those quotes from Goldsmith and Williams saying they are honored to be stolen from are hard enough to accept, but why didn't the studios go after him? The classical stuff -- gayne ballet suite I think -- he trots out from 2001 in every second or third pic seems really note-for-note, so that isn't even creative typing.

 

[Nick086]

I know they reuse most of their music in nearly all nine of the star trek films. They seem to play the music in a different beat or tune. The end credits theme for STTMP, STTFF, STFC, and STI all have different beats or tunes.

 

[Basil]

If you listen to the music that occurs between the first two shots by the Reliant when Spock and Kirk were discussing the damage from the first shot, it is the same as a the middle section of Shad's Pursuit from Battle Beyond the Stars (Horner's first movie.) It is also similar to something he then did in Cocoon.

All contemporary film composers have their motifs or borrow from other composers, to varying degrees, depending on their individual predilections; older composers did as well, but the better ones, like Dimitri Tiomkin and Miklos Rosza just seemed better at it.

Horner gets picked on so much because he's not as nimble about recycling, but compare Goldsmith's Klingon theme to the first few notes in the earlier "The Wind and the Lion."

You could compare it to the Indian music in BREAKHEART PASS and get a lot closer, but still Goldsmith is often just cycling bits, not whole passages, and using them in different ways.

Why Horner didn't get massacred for all of his first dozen scores still stuns me ... all those quotes from Goldsmith and Williams saying they are honored to be stolen from are hard enough to accept, but why didn't the studios go after him? The classical stuff -- gayne ballet suite I think -- he trots out from 2001 in every second or third pic seems really note-for-note, so that isn't even creative typing.

Good points as usual, trevanian . . . I hear a lot of recycling in Jerry Goldsmith, who is still a favorite film and TV composer of mine as far back as his The Man from U.N.C.L.E. days, but you're right that Horner's more likely to use large sections in his efforts.

I'm curious about a few things, though. Are the film directors and producers specifically asking for a "Horner-esque" score when he is hired, in somewhat the same way they were drawn to Cliff Eidelman for a Holst-esque TUC? Given that his output seems a lot less consistent than Goldsmith or Williams (in his prime), is Horner a full-time film composer or is this just a part of his professional experience as a composer?

On a somewhat related note, I remember reading on these boards months earlier that Jerry Goldsmith may have written a contender for the TOS theme. Anyone know if he actually composed it or if a demo of it was ever made?

 

[Bones2]

I know they reuse most of their music in nearly all nine of the star trek films. They seem to play the music in a different beat or tune. The end credits theme for STTMP, STTFF, STFC, and STI all have different beats or tunes.

Hahaha, STI. How apt.

Sorry, that's not really adding anything.

Here's a particularly good bit from Nemesis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmQjaMXDWbc

 

[Doug Otte]

All contemporary film composers have their motifs or borrow from other composers, to varying degrees, depending on their individual predilections; older composers did as well, but the better ones, like Dimitri Tiomkin and Miklos Rosza just seemed better at it.

Indeed, and not just film composers. Everyone does it, intentionally or not. Sometimes you like an idea and just want to reuse it. Other times, your natural personality/skills tend to produce similar bits.

Regarding classic film composers, I was watching The Caine Mutiny the other day, which was scored by Max Steiner. I heard a brief cue that sounded exactly like one of his cues from King Kong!

Doug

 

[JarodRussell]

The classical stuff -- gayne ballet suite I think -- he trots out from 2001 in every second or third pic seems really note-for-note, so that isn't even creative typing.

LOL? If it is a classical music piece, then he isn't ripping it off from 2001. That would be like saying everyone who uses Ode to Joy in his score is ripping off the Die Hard soundtrack.

 

[trevanian]

The classical stuff -- gayne ballet suite I think -- he trots out from 2001 in every second or third pic seems really note-for-note, so that isn't even creative typing.

LOL? If it is a classical music piece, then he isn't ripping it off from 2001. That would be like saying everyone who uses Ode to Joy in his score is ripping off the Die Hard soundtrack.

When you've got somebody sleeping in a spaceship and you use it -- which is the case in 2001 -- as Poole jogs around while Bowman and the hibernauts sleep -- and then again for the end of ALIENS -- that's pretty much ripping intent as well as exact sound. EDIT ADDON: plus when you 'quote' from 2001, you're relying on something that is pretty iconic.

Than he uses it as a contrast to the imagery in PATRIOT GAMES, but it is the same music, whether you're considering 2001 as the first film use of it or not.

 

[trevanian]

Are the film directors and producers specifically asking for a "Horner-esque" score when he is hired, in somewhat the same way they were drawn to Cliff Eidelman for a Holst-esque TUC?

I think folks hear a certain sound in a certain kind of pic that is successful and just want more of the same, or they want a sound that is just interesting to them. Both perspectives might be valid with the tubular bells sound that permeates 48HRS and COMMANDO and RED HEAT and GORKY PARK (at least it is freshly orchestrated in that one) and prob'ly a few others.

Either that or they wanted a Goldsmith sound without paying for a Goldsmith score, in the case of some of the SF pics. If you listen to Christopher Young's stuff for INVADERS FROM MARS remake on his CINEMA SEPTET release (not sure how much of it is actually in the movie), it practically outGoldsmiths Goldsmith.

When I spoke with Meyer about TUC (10+ months before TUC came out), he didn't have the money to even afford Horner and was still looking for a composer, and I think I mentioned Young to him, but maybe Meyer isn't a Goldsmith fan, or thought it would be a ways off from his own intent (which is odd, because if Meyer likes THE PLANETS, Goldsmith already did a heavy riff on it with OUTLAND -- just using the Jupiter part of the music rather than the Mars part.)

 

[JarodRussell]

When you've got somebody sleeping in a spaceship and you use it -- which is the case in 2001 -- as Poole jogs around while Bowman and the hibernauts sleep -- and then again for the end of ALIENS -- that's pretty much ripping intent as well as exact sound.

And you don't think that the director James Cameron consciously wanted that scene in Aliens to be reminiscent of 2001?

 

[trevanian]

When you've got somebody sleeping in a spaceship and you use it -- which is the case in 2001 -- as Poole jogs around while Bowman and the hibernauts sleep -- and then again for the end of ALIENS -- that's pretty much ripping intent as well as exact sound.

And you don't think that the director James Cameron consciously wanted that scene in Aliens to be reminiscent of 2001?

No. That view is based on Cameron's serious stated dissatisfaction with Horner's score for ALIENS (despite it getting a nomination -- academy was extra stupid that year, they nominated TVH for score and cinematography, which are friggin' horrible), which may be why he didn't go back to him again for more than a decade. Horner's defense was not enough time to score the film properly ... which is I guess why he scored pretty much everything else the some way?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Horner borrows from his own library extensively for Avatar as well. Glory and Titanic themese are lifted quite generously...

Yeah, I didn't pick out Titanic because I only saw it once, but Glory is one of Horner's soundtracks that I enjoy and I recognized quite a bit of it in Avatar.

 

[BolianAuthor]

I know they reuse most of their music in nearly all nine of the star trek films. They seem to play the music in a different beat or tune. The end credits theme for STTMP, STTFF, STFC, and STI all have different beats or tunes.

That's because all those movies used Jerry Goldsmith's music, and Jerry Goldsmith could never do anything original. It was always the same template, the "Enterprise theme" followed by a sample of the film's main title theme, followed by the "Enterprise theme" again... nothing was ever original with his scores. I'm so glad that GEN and NEM got away from using Goldsmith's stuff.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Planet Of The Apes" was a remarkably original musical score.

Goldsmith is by far the best composer Trek ever managed to employ.

 

[JarodRussell]

No. That view is based on Cameron's serious stated dissatisfaction with Horner's score for ALIENS

Which doesn't exclude the possibility that the score for exactly that scene was as intended.

Do you have a source for that? Might be an interesting read.

 

[trevanian]

No. That view is based on Cameron's serious stated dissatisfaction with Horner's score for ALIENS

Which doesn't exclude the possibility that the score for exactly that scene was as intended.

Do you have a source for that? Might be an interesting read.

Pretty sure a late-80s CFQ is where I first came across that info, but I don't know which issue.

Actually it may have been much later, around TITANIC time, that the Cameron / aliens score thing came out. That would mean it could have been SCI FI UNIVERSE or CINESCAPE or CFQ.

 

[Doug Otte]

The classical stuff -- gayne ballet suite I think -- he trots out from 2001 in every second or third pic seems really note-for-note, so that isn't even creative typing.

LOL? If it is a classical music piece, then he isn't ripping it off from 2001. That would be like saying everyone who uses Ode to Joy in his score is ripping off the Die Hard soundtrack.

When you've got somebody sleeping in a spaceship and you use it -- which is the case in 2001 -- as Poole jogs around while Bowman and the hibernauts sleep -- and then again for the end of ALIENS -- that's pretty much ripping intent as well as exact sound. EDIT ADDON: plus when you 'quote' from 2001, you're relying on something that is pretty iconic.

Than he uses it as a contrast to the imagery in PATRIOT GAMES, but it is the same music, whether you're considering 2001 as the first film use of it or not.

Wasn't Gayane used at the end of Alien? Goldsmith composed an original cue for that scene, but Scott replaced it, and Goldsmith was forever angry about that.

I can't remember if Gayane was also used in Aliens or not.

Doug

 

[Saito S]

Goldsmith is by far the best composer Trek ever managed to employ.

I generally agree, though I have to mention Dennis McCarthy, as well. There are individual scores that stand out to me (Ron Jones' work on "The Best of Both Worlds"), or sometimes even individual tracks from a score (overall, I thought Eidelman's TUC score was good, not great, except for that opening theme, which was fantastic), but in terms of consistently excellent work, those two are the best IMO.

I have noticed (often) that Horner tends to re-use his own themes, more than most composers do (and all of them do to SOME degree, really), and I thought this was especially glaring in the TWOK score. Not in terms of recycling themes from other scores, but in terms of recycling the main theme OF TWOK within the score itself. I felt like the same tune just kept playing over and over and over throughout the entire film.

That's because all those movies used Jerry Goldsmith's music, and Jerry Goldsmith could never do anything original. It was always the same template, the "Enterprise theme" followed by a sample of the film's main title theme, followed by the "Enterprise theme" again... nothing was ever original with his scores. I'm so glad that GEN and NEM got away from using Goldsmith's stuff.

Uh... Presuming that "NEM" = "Nemesis", that WAS Goldsmith. And some of his best work, I thought; "Remus", "Odds and Ends", and "Final Flight" stood out to me, in particular. All four of the TNG movies, I thought, had great music (including GEN, though of course that was McCarthy, not Goldsmith), and are my favorite Trek movie scores. TMPs score was also good, as was TUCs (and again, that opening is right up there with the best of the best, even if I found the score as a whole to only be "pretty good").