James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)
- Thread starter chrisspringob
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I just hope that Cameron doesn't lie/exaggerate about him always having considered to do a trilogy.
It never ends well when you pull the sequels out of your ass... just see "The Matrix".
It never ends well when you pull the sequels out of your ass... just see "The Matrix".
Well trilogy or no, he has justified the expense of the undertaking all along on the explicit premise that all of the assets created for this film would be usable in sequels if the first one were a success. So while the narrative itself might not be designed for the sake of the god-blessed "trilogy" that seems to be such a holy grail to the more obsessive fanboi segment of the consumer market, he's also not "pulling it out of his ass."
He did say up front that there would be a trilogy if the movie made enough money. So he wouldn't be lying.
Marian
john titor
Captain
rubbish film.
Finally saw this film on Friday in the local 3d imax theater.
The plot was simplistic and has been done to death.
The visuals were the best example of CGI and motion capture that I have ever seen.
The music is honestly the best part of the film in my book.
Overall the movie did drag for me in a few places but I was not bored and did not leave the theater feeling I had wasted my money.
The plot was simplistic and has been done to death.
The visuals were the best example of CGI and motion capture that I have ever seen.
The music is honestly the best part of the film in my book.
Overall the movie did drag for me in a few places but I was not bored and did not leave the theater feeling I had wasted my money.
So eloquent. I'm surprised it's not "utter bullshit."
The story, though thin, was told very expertly. However, if Cameron had ditched his plot we would've had an even more fascinating nature documentary.
Many here have already noted that the story is thin and too familiar (a reshoot of "Dances With Wolves", which was a rehash of X, which was a rehash of Y), pedestrian, predictable, etc. Some conservatives have complained that it was just a visually spectacular pile of transparent America-bashing, corporate-bashing, Marine-bashing liberal tropes.
I must differ from the conservative pundits, as I found "Avatar's" message of American cultural and intellectual superiority quite inspiring.
Consider this:
So upon reflection, I loved it!
Many here have already noted that the story is thin and too familiar (a reshoot of "Dances With Wolves", which was a rehash of X, which was a rehash of Y), pedestrian, predictable, etc. Some conservatives have complained that it was just a visually spectacular pile of transparent America-bashing, corporate-bashing, Marine-bashing liberal tropes.
I must differ from the conservative pundits, as I found "Avatar's" message of American cultural and intellectual superiority quite inspiring.
Consider this:
None of the Na'vi, even their "wise" elders, managed to understand the simplest things about the humans, human psychology, human technology, or human military capabilities, as demonstrated by the way they were taken aback by the human plans to take their homes, were dumbfounded by the sight of the bulldozers that had certainly been operating in their forests for years, had no idea that arrows are useless against giant steel-tracked vehicles, and had no clue that guns, rockets, and high-explosives produce frightening effects. This despite humans spending years trying to teach these facts to the ignorant native dullards.
In contrast, the story's hero (who is of course an American), though a semi-retarded redneck example of an American (a major plot point), learned all of Na'vi language, culture, customs, and military techniques in a month, starting from nothing. He not only learned their ways, he equalled or exceeded the most legendary leaders in their entire history, and did it on a whim - an American whim. Yes, the whims of our semi-retard noobs with a month on the ground outshine the lifetime achievements of the natives' most exhalted heroes.
Understanding even a little about humans is beyond the grasp of any Na'vi, because of their inferior culture and intellect. For a Marine corporal who reads comic books, conning the Na'vi, penetrating their society, joining their tribe, shagging their babe-in-chief, and taking over as their leader is a one-month cakewalk, obviously because we're so naturally superior to them. Seriously, if they had a culture worthy of the name, with a knowledge base beyond that of the average American six-year old, it would take an uneducated idiot way more than a month to learn it, adapt to it, and then lead it. Heck, it takes longer than that for an Englishman to adapt to Canadian culture.
On top of all that, consider how representatively stupid the Americans we sent there were. To try and win the trust of the natives one of these Americans decided to use gene splicing to breed up a human/Na'vi hybrid who looks like a Na'vi, but acts like a Na'vi being worn like a suit by an alien bent on conquest and genocide. No non-retarded American would ever think that the Na'vi would react positively if we acted like the evil aliens in a remake of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", "V" (the series), the Go'uld (SG-1), or "Men in Black" (the bug that wore Edgar). So we sent our retards to their planet with an amazingly stupid human-infested-native-body plan that would terrify any half-brained half-wit species in the galaxy, but fortunately the Na'vi elders just weren't very bright, as bright as a retarded American half-wit, that is.
Any alien trying to infiltrate American society in human form, edging ever closer to our leaders and trying to learn our military secrets, would have all the intelligence agencies on Earth inventing new types of body scanners and new ways to blast the aliens back into space. The Na'vi, though, they'd let Michael Jackson and Pee Wee Herman run their daycare centers. But were they trusting? Heck no just stupid. They didn't trust Jake Scully an inch and the rest of the humans even less. Yet Scully managed to become their great leader, them knowing he was wearing a Na'vi body like a cheap suit and admitting that we're going to wipe them out, because even semi-retarded American jar heards are geniuses compared to the morons of Pandora.
This is mostly due to our cultural superiority, not Scully's inherent abilities as we would rate them, since among fellow humans Scully didn't even make sergeant. He was considered a retard among the retards who came up with the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" plan for cultural contact, yet he outshown all the Na'vi.
All this gives me confidence for our future contacts with alien races. If they're all as dumb as the Na'vi then our galactic domination is assured.
In contrast, the story's hero (who is of course an American), though a semi-retarded redneck example of an American (a major plot point), learned all of Na'vi language, culture, customs, and military techniques in a month, starting from nothing. He not only learned their ways, he equalled or exceeded the most legendary leaders in their entire history, and did it on a whim - an American whim. Yes, the whims of our semi-retard noobs with a month on the ground outshine the lifetime achievements of the natives' most exhalted heroes.
Understanding even a little about humans is beyond the grasp of any Na'vi, because of their inferior culture and intellect. For a Marine corporal who reads comic books, conning the Na'vi, penetrating their society, joining their tribe, shagging their babe-in-chief, and taking over as their leader is a one-month cakewalk, obviously because we're so naturally superior to them. Seriously, if they had a culture worthy of the name, with a knowledge base beyond that of the average American six-year old, it would take an uneducated idiot way more than a month to learn it, adapt to it, and then lead it. Heck, it takes longer than that for an Englishman to adapt to Canadian culture.
On top of all that, consider how representatively stupid the Americans we sent there were. To try and win the trust of the natives one of these Americans decided to use gene splicing to breed up a human/Na'vi hybrid who looks like a Na'vi, but acts like a Na'vi being worn like a suit by an alien bent on conquest and genocide. No non-retarded American would ever think that the Na'vi would react positively if we acted like the evil aliens in a remake of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", "V" (the series), the Go'uld (SG-1), or "Men in Black" (the bug that wore Edgar). So we sent our retards to their planet with an amazingly stupid human-infested-native-body plan that would terrify any half-brained half-wit species in the galaxy, but fortunately the Na'vi elders just weren't very bright, as bright as a retarded American half-wit, that is.
Any alien trying to infiltrate American society in human form, edging ever closer to our leaders and trying to learn our military secrets, would have all the intelligence agencies on Earth inventing new types of body scanners and new ways to blast the aliens back into space. The Na'vi, though, they'd let Michael Jackson and Pee Wee Herman run their daycare centers. But were they trusting? Heck no just stupid. They didn't trust Jake Scully an inch and the rest of the humans even less. Yet Scully managed to become their great leader, them knowing he was wearing a Na'vi body like a cheap suit and admitting that we're going to wipe them out, because even semi-retarded American jar heards are geniuses compared to the morons of Pandora.
This is mostly due to our cultural superiority, not Scully's inherent abilities as we would rate them, since among fellow humans Scully didn't even make sergeant. He was considered a retard among the retards who came up with the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" plan for cultural contact, yet he outshown all the Na'vi.
All this gives me confidence for our future contacts with alien races. If they're all as dumb as the Na'vi then our galactic domination is assured.
So upon reflection, I loved it!
LOL 
Okay, so to begin with I have to make a confession. I didn't want to comment until I'd read all the previous replies to this thread and checked that I wasn't just repeating the same stuff over again. Then I got to page 5 and I couldn't be bothered any more. (Come on, this is what, page 54?!)
So. Apologies if this has been said already.
Avatar was utter cod. I hated it. I voted TERRIBLE.
Apart from the obvious points which I'm certain have already been made (cruddy storyline, cheesy dialogue, "White Messiah" a la Dances With Wolves, relies on visual spectacle too heavily, etc etc.) it just didn't do anything for me.
- I thought Pandora and its inhabitants were completely unbelievable. They just weren't convincing. The Na'vi were essentially a mash up of various tribal stereotypes, and none of them seemed to have a personality outside of "angry tribal man" and "sexy tribal lady". The animals and the plants all looked the same, there was no variety in the style - everything is blue and glowy. Oooh, pretty - for about 5 minutes. After that, yawn. Also, what's the evolutionary reason for a rhino-type creature having SIX eyes all along one side of its head? On the back of its head, yeah, okay, might come in handy, but why would you have them in a line, when one pair woud do the job? It makes no sense!
- The female characters were shocking. I'm not going to do a big ol' feminist rant here (well, I'm going to try not to), but as far as I could see, there were four main women - Neytiri, her mother, Grace the scientist, and the helicopter pilot whose name I didn't catch. Neytiri becomes Jake's wife, so she lands nicely in a non-threatening domestic pigeon hole, and mommy's already there waiting for her, so they're both safe and won't disrupt the happy patriarchy. The scientist and the helicopter pilot both get killed after serving their purpose (aiding the white male in his quest). They're not love interests and have no further use, so Cameron bumps them off. GREAT! Thanks!
- It was about two hours too long. I was so bored in the middle I started planning my grocery list.
Basically, I thought it was sloppy. Lazy. All the time and effort went on effects. Like a steaming turd covered in pretty blue icing and tied up with a great big 3d bow.
So. Apologies if this has been said already.
Avatar was utter cod. I hated it. I voted TERRIBLE.
Apart from the obvious points which I'm certain have already been made (cruddy storyline, cheesy dialogue, "White Messiah" a la Dances With Wolves, relies on visual spectacle too heavily, etc etc.) it just didn't do anything for me.
- I thought Pandora and its inhabitants were completely unbelievable. They just weren't convincing. The Na'vi were essentially a mash up of various tribal stereotypes, and none of them seemed to have a personality outside of "angry tribal man" and "sexy tribal lady". The animals and the plants all looked the same, there was no variety in the style - everything is blue and glowy. Oooh, pretty - for about 5 minutes. After that, yawn. Also, what's the evolutionary reason for a rhino-type creature having SIX eyes all along one side of its head? On the back of its head, yeah, okay, might come in handy, but why would you have them in a line, when one pair woud do the job? It makes no sense!
- The female characters were shocking. I'm not going to do a big ol' feminist rant here (well, I'm going to try not to), but as far as I could see, there were four main women - Neytiri, her mother, Grace the scientist, and the helicopter pilot whose name I didn't catch. Neytiri becomes Jake's wife, so she lands nicely in a non-threatening domestic pigeon hole, and mommy's already there waiting for her, so they're both safe and won't disrupt the happy patriarchy. The scientist and the helicopter pilot both get killed after serving their purpose (aiding the white male in his quest). They're not love interests and have no further use, so Cameron bumps them off. GREAT! Thanks!
- It was about two hours too long. I was so bored in the middle I started planning my grocery list.
Basically, I thought it was sloppy. Lazy. All the time and effort went on effects. Like a steaming turd covered in pretty blue icing and tied up with a great big 3d bow.
It's funny - I enjoyed the music, but was continually aware of the similarities to everything from Glory to Aliens.
I was rewatching the beginning of Avatar this afternoon and noticed the perfect economy with which the dialogue and opening visuals establish the premise, the information necessary to understand the situation, and the dichotomy between the reality of Pandora and the point-of-view of the humans living in the compound. It is really, really well done and without a speck of technobabble.
Wonderful movie - wonderful science fiction movie.
Well, there's always room for complaints, isn't there? Geez. You know, if I were James Cameron, I'd pray that my next film would bomb at the box-office and attract zero awards attention just so that people would see my film for what it is and not nitpick and criticize it to death for the sake of going against the consensus. Having issues with the originality of the plot, I get that, but in no way is Avatar "cod" or "terrible" or "bullshit"... I can't see how people can be so cynical as to deny themselves the exhilaration of this spectacle. And that's what it is: It's what Star Wars must've felt like 30 years ago. It's a fairytale. It's sentimental. It's sincere and it's magical. All the things Star Wars was as well. Why should one be a beloved film classic and not the other?
Why would Cameron cut off his nose to spite his face? So while Avatar is rapidly becoming the most successful film in history, some people still don't like it - how much do you think a thing like that bothers Cameron at this point in his life and career?
Dude's king of the world, right?
Funny, I thought Grace and the female soldier pilot died like heroes. Why can't women be heroes? Why was it sexist for the pilot to go down in battle, honoring her principles by not having fired on the holy tree of souls? There's nothing sexist about her death and there's nothing sexist about women dying as soldiers. Neytiri was a fighter. She saved her husband at the very end. What's this "safe" little mate argument anyway?
a) I have no desire to go against any concensus. I just really hated this movie.
b) I'm not denying myself anything. I watched it, I didn't enjoy it. And yes, it was "cod".
c) Because one is actually quite good?
Sorry, I know I'm being petty in my responses, but I hate this attitude that if you didn't like Avatar you're somehow denying your inner child, or disliking it to be different. I didn't like it. Sorry.
They didn't die like heroes, they were punished for not fitting the roles appointed to female characters, ie. wife or mother. Also, it wasn't their principles they died for. It was Jake's. It was never their fight. Also, I'm sort of stepping outside of the movie and looking at the views of the people who made it. For a screenwriter in 21st century America to kill off those two women suggests a very traditional view of women's roles.
Traditionally in film if women step outside of their stereotyped roles, they are punished. Often with death. See pretty much any literature on feminism and film criticism.
Sorry to use the word "roles" so much by the way. I just realised when I re-read this. Ah well.
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"One" thinks perhaps you have never read ANY feminist criticism. No reason you should have, I'm just saying.
As a character, she IS non-threatening. For one thing, she's a sex object. A love interest. That is essentially her character. Or at least, that's all I got from her. There is never any question that she might do anything other than marry a) Jake, or b) the other guy. Whatever his name was. She may fight, she may be "spunky", a skilled warrior, whatever - all of this is negated by Cameron making her SEXY. That's pretty standard in modern society - a woman with power must be made non-threatening by turning her in to a sex object/love interest/wife. Which Cameron does, quite successfully.
I'm afraid I can't argue against your statement on her saving his ass. My memory's a little fuzzy, it was a few weeks ago that I saw the film and I can't remember how the final fight with the military muscle man plays out. So I'll let you have that one
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"One" thinks that if you can't come back stronger than that, you should probably spare yourself the embarrassment.
You are, because your answer there is based on a false premise - that Avatar is not likely to become "a beloved film classic."
While there is no way to know until time has passed, there's every reason right now to think that Avatar will come to be regarded as a classic of the genre and a great commercial film in the tradition of other popular blockbusters - which is all that Star Wars ultimately is.
While Avatar will undoubtedly be more successful than Star Wars, it's not likely to loom quite as large in the history of commercial cinema as Lucas's first space fantasy did simply because the business environments are so different - Star Wars reenergized Hollywood during a period when it was struggling to compete. That Avatar will be similarly influential on how films are actually made, though, is quite likely.
That said, Star Wars is not a greatly better movie than Avatar and in many respects is quite inferior. Certainly with respect to performances - other than Guinness there's not a first-rate performance in Lucas's movie, while there are several outstanding in Avatar.