A possible solution to a problem in ST

[Gojirob]

In some eps, movies and pro-novels, characters make reference to popular culture and history that they should be well past, particularly from the 20th Century. I think I finally have an in-universe solution, and forgive me if its already out there.

The war called WW3 wasn't all out, but it was ruinous. For a long while, much popular culture and historical info was lost. Historical research needs history to proceed from, and pop culture builds upon all that has gone before. In the process of surviving and rebuilding, people didn't have time for reflection or entertainment.

Sometime between Archer and Kirk, things finally settled in enough to allow for this. Then, a major sealed cache of documents and files were found--everything from Presidential and Prime Ministerial speeches to episodes of the Flintstones and I Claudius, Beatles, Bach and what have you. This began a slow reconnection with the past pop culture that persists into the 24th Century.

Ok, so this wasn't screaming to be solved. But is it a reasonable explanation?

 

[FormerLurker]

Sounds like a reasonable theory. Merits some consideration.

 

[Gaith]

Quite.

 

[Finn]

No. That may explain lack of references to mid 21st Century Earth's pop culture. But that doesn't explain why we don't hear about contemporary pop culture of the 23rd and 24th Centuries.

And on Enterprise, they talked as if they had new movies for a while when Captain Hernadez implied there have been scores of WW3 movies over the years by the time of Enterprise, like we have tons of WW2 movies.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But that doesn't explain why we don't hear about contemporary pop culture of the 23rd and 24th Centuries.

How would we even know how to simulate that? Any attempt to do so would be rather silly, IMHO. And it would detract from the story.

 

[Finn]

And seeing our heroes listening to 19th Century music, hanging in 20th century Earth locales on the Holodeck all the time is better?

 

[FormerLurker]

It's similar to us, today, listening to 16-18th century music, and hanging out in 20th century locales. Don't you think it's enough they've done their best to simulate a 23-24th century paramilitary? But no, they need to simulate an entire culture? Honestly, how much of the culture you're living in now do you really know? And you want popular entertainment to simulate a what our culture might evolve into in the next 300-400 years?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And seeing our heroes listening to 19th Century music, hanging in 20th century Earth locales on the Holodeck all the time is better?

At least we know what those cultures are like. We know what it was like in the 19th and 20th centuries. It's impossible to even begin to guess what life will be like in the 24th century, or what form its pop culture (if it has one) will take.

 

[Finn]

Perhaps, but the writers already started guessing with the starfleet technology, the alien races, and those horrid civilian clothes we saw Wesley and Naomi wear. They might just as well come up with references to a contemporary singer or something.

 

[Myasishchev]

It's similar to us, today, listening to 16-18th century music, and hanging out in 20th century locales. Don't you think it's enough they've done their best to simulate a 23-24th century paramilitary? But no, they need to simulate an entire culture?

Yeah, we wouldn't expect that from science fiction.

Really, they already have the basis of a cultural phenomenon, the holodeck, at least as profound as video games and likely to be more important than television and close to the importance of the Internet.

They've really barely scratched the surface of how people would live in a world with functional virtual reality. I mean, what do they do with it? They usually play games that sometimes poorly and often boringly simulate life before the 21st century, or fictions written before the 21st century. It's something of a failure of imagination. About the only ones that ever seemed fun were the non-Vic Fontaine programs Julian Bashir enjoyed. Blowing up Nazi aircraft in a might-as-well-be-real-life Battle of Britain simulator sounds like a cool game. Likewise, the might-as-well-be-Bond programs would probably be lots of fun, especially if you got to play the NC-17 parts they don't actually film.

At the very least, I'd like to see a character that listens to rock music. Zefram Cochrane doesn't count, although him listening to Steppenwolf in 2063 would be just about as anachronistic as hearing it on the Enterprise.

 

[Timo]

Then again, popular music is a phenomenon created by a certain type of music recording and distribution mechanism. Perhaps it ceases to be once commercial distribution becomes unviable (i.e. everybody could get the industrial music for free if they halfway tried)?

There has always been folk music, as opposed to the music of the cultured folks. Popular music has killed some of that in our time, but it may come back to some degree in the 24th century: Riker wouldn't listen to music, but would instead make music. Something like jazz, based on improvisation and performance rather than faithful repetition, would be likely to be born again. But rock music would probably become jazz, for the same sort of reasons: amateurs would play unfamiliar instruments badly and without guidance, then develop that into an art form. (Come to think of it, that's really happening already...)

I think the holodeck is being used in more diverse ways than at first might seem. It's just that we only get to see the bits where they reenact classic plays or novels. But the O'Brien/Bashir "free-structured games" are a step towards another phenomenon we don't see, but hear mentioned: sports. O'Brien goes kayaking, various extras burden Bashir and Crusher with injuries suffered while climbing or skydiving or, for all we know, firesurfing. Holosex is so often mentioned that it apparently isn't much of a taboo, and Riker enjoys tabletop holoerotica in public view in early TNG - but we also get other examples of holocuddling down the range, such as Sandrine's or Vic's. And this probably blends in with sports at some point, such as with Picard's horse-patting or Parrises Squares.

What sort of extremities are we lacking, really? Abstract art? We got some of that with Dax and the fancy thought-controlled holopuzzle. Serious training? We've seen runabout piloting simulators and martial arts arenas. Modeling, planning, problem-solving? Lots of that in TNG, such as "Identity Crisis" or "Schisms". Indeed, when our heroes had to plan and practice for an away mission in "To the Death", it was to their misfortune to be stuck on a ship without a holodeck... And it was clear to the audience that this tool would have been of significant help.

We also get the holoaddiction subplot, holoidentity dilemmas, holographic lifeforms, holoethics... I think it's quite unfair to blame the writers for lack of holoimagination.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

It's similar to us, today, listening to 16-18th century music, and hanging out in 20th century locales. Don't you think it's enough they've done their best to simulate a 23-24th century paramilitary? But no, they need to simulate an entire culture?

Yeah, we wouldn't expect that from science fiction.

Really, they already have the basis of a cultural phenomenon, the holodeck, at least as profound as video games and likely to be more important than television and close to the importance of the Internet.

They've really barely scratched the surface of how people would live in a world with functional virtual reality. I mean, what do they do with it? They usually play games that sometimes poorly and often boringly simulate life before the 21st century, or fictions written before the 21st century. It's something of a failure of imagination. About the only ones that ever seemed fun were the non-Vic Fontaine programs Julian Bashir enjoyed. Blowing up Nazi aircraft in a might-as-well-be-real-life Battle of Britain simulator sounds like a cool game. Likewise, the might-as-well-be-Bond programs would probably be lots of fun, especially if you got to play the NC-17 parts they don't actually film.

At the very least, I'd like to see a character that listens to rock music. Zefram Cochrane doesn't count, although him listening to Steppenwolf in 2063 would be just about as anachronistic as hearing it on the Enterprise.

You do realize that the stated reason for not visiting Earth in TOS is because GR didn't want to have to come up with a reasonable culture to depict, as that leads to speculation far beyond what Timo did above.

There's also the consideration that we have seen a lot of different cultures, but they have all been uniformly singular in their expression, and as humans, we just wouldn't have allowed that for depictions of Earth. The presumption that all Klingons act alike, regardless of station or resources is one we don't accept for ourselves, because we can just look around and see that isn't so. So how do the Australian aborigines advance with the rest of the world? Or the Hovitos in Brazil? There are those who want to see this depicted, and won't accept any presentation of Earth without such. Just how far do they have to go to please everybody? And why should they bother?

 

[James T.Shepard]

I think Star Trek gives humans to much credit and shows "Entertainment" (Holodeck specifically) that a lot of people would find boring. I mean it's all classical music and Shakespeare. Are you telling me not one single person on the Enterprise/DS9/Voyager didn't want to say go simulated Orbital Skydiving? Role play a superhero or any action hero for that matter?

There's no problem with Shakespeare but would you rather not live out a Harry Potter book?

Though a lot of this could have to do with budget.

I'd imagine the Abrams Kirk plays Future Street Fighter (He needs practice. zing!) while Spock is busy with Future Mass Effect or even Heavy Rain (emotionally engaging).

EDIT:

McCoy (Both versions) should have their own "Dr. House" type shows in the Holodeck. "Damn It Jim! It's not Lupus!

 

[USS KG5]

I think Star Trek gives humans to much credit and shows "Entertainment" (Holodeck specifically) that a lot of people would find boring. I mean it's all classical music and Shakespeare. Are you telling me not one single person on the Enterprise/DS9/Voyager didn't want to say go simulated Orbital Skydiving? Role play a superhero or any action hero for that matter?

Well seeing as Torres in VGR DOES go orbital skydiving in the holodeck, ermm, I guess you can!

There's no problem with Shakespeare but would you rather not live out a Harry Potter book?

The logic of using Shakespeare should scream in your face. Shakespeare is still popular after 400 years anyway, no reason to believe that it won't be after 800.

Harry Potter has not passed that test yet, it has not even crossed one generation. Using it in Trek could date the show very quickly.

I'd imagine the Abrams Kirk plays Future Street Fighter (He needs practice. zing!) while Spock is busy with Future Mass Effect or even Heavy Rain (emotionally engaging).

I doubt you'd be that keen on playing Mass Effect if you actually ARE a space soldier. It is about fantasy and if you live in a fantasy you hardly need it.

McCoy (Both versions) should have their own "Dr. House" type shows in the Holodeck. "Damn It Jim! It's not Lupus!

Perhaps they do. I sense your post is slightly in jest, so please don't take anything bad from my reply.

They use classics in Trek just because they ARE classics, they stand the test of time. Some genres, like video games, by definition actually expire and are replaced by similar but better titles. We know from episodes like "The Game" in TNG that video games still exist in Trek's 24th century, but its hard to imagine a game like Mass Effect still being played in 400 years.

 

[I am not Spock]

Movies exist up til at least ENT's timeframe. Captain Hernandez mentions a WW3 epic sweeping all the award ceremonies.

Data says TV was dead by 2040. That could be because of WW3 happening and all, but it could also mean simply that TV as we know it died then. And everyone switched to an online 'pay on demand' type entertainment format.

No-one seems to listen to pop music in the 24th century. It's all classical or jazz. Except Tom Paris. He has a thing for 20th century pop culture. For once, I'd like to see someone do a John Mclane holodeck programme, rather than a period holonovel. Or listen to Metallica rather than Bach.

I suppose Mass Effect or space fantasy games would be more like Tom Clancy miltary sims to Starfleet officers, if you know what I mean. They're already in space, living the fantasy.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Quite.

Quite, quite.

Well done, old man. Well done indeed.

 

[James T.Shepard]

No-one seems to listen to pop music in the 24th century. It's all classical or jazz. Except Tom Paris. He has a thing for 20th century pop culture. For once, I'd like to see someone do a John Mclane holodeck programme, rather than a period holonovel. Or listen to Metallica rather than Bach.

I suppose Mass Effect or space fantasy games would be more like Tom Clancy miltary sims to Starfleet officers, if you know what I mean. They're already in space, living the fantasy.

Though my quote was slightly in jest, this is essentially what I meant. If Captain Picard is shown enjoying a "Murder On The Orient Express" type Holodeck program why can't the younger officers get something more, shall we say less talky and more shooty.

There are many classic action movies they could have used. Imagine Riker as "The Terminator" or hell Kirk being Bond (suits the character).

Mass Effect would basically be GTA for them. Modern/Current times but set in an alternate universe.

 

[FormerLurker]

I'm wondering if anyone else figured out that the 18th century holonovel that Janeway was participating in was "The Turn of the Screw".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I see two reasons why we never hear anyone in Trek listening to pop or rock: The rights issues from using real songs would be prohibitive (except for the occasional Steppenwolf song in ST:FC), and using made up ones would just be silly. Trying to figure out what 24th-century pop would sound like, would turn out kind of like this:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmxXIS2ot8w[/yt]



(Fun fact: Johnny Harris wrote that song - "Odyssey" - specifically for this Buck Rogers episode you are looking at. AFAIK, he wrote it to fit the movements of the actors in the 'band'.)

 

[Myasishchev]

^

Probably the best portrayal of "future music" I've ever seen was Children of Men's "zen music."

In other words, the most plausible science fiction music would sound, to us, like completely unlistenable garbage.

Alien music would probably be even worse, since it's not likely that they'd have quite the same auditory range, and I'd suspect many bits would be unpleasantly low- or high-frequency or inaudible altogether.