Okay, how long do they have to live there before it becomes wrong? They'd already been there a few hundred years.
How could a Star Trek fan NOT like Insurrection?
- Thread starter Danoz
- Start date
Okay, how long do they have to live there before it becomes wrong? They'd already been there a few hundred years.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
In that case I may have to crank one out myself once I figure out how to use the internet for more than just the random post.
I think I've got something in me on that pic equivalent to Ellison's views on OUTLAND.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Just jumping in on page 5 to say this must be thread number 45 that defends Insurrecion.
It may soon catch up to the number of apologetic threads by fans that are stunned that nobody likes Nemesis.
We need stickies at the top, one for each of these films. for the fans that are still boggled by the disdain these movies receive.
It may soon catch up to the number of apologetic threads by fans that are stunned that nobody likes Nemesis.
We need stickies at the top, one for each of these films. for the fans that are still boggled by the disdain these movies receive.
I think a sticky explaining why Nemesis sucks would be more appropriate.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Oh absolutely!
But we need one to contain all the new "Is there anything really wrong with Insurrection/Nemsis?" threads.
But we need one to contain all the new "Is there anything really wrong with Insurrection/Nemsis?" threads.
It may have its flaws, but personally, I liked the movie, and the fact the Ba'Ku were not natives is irrelevant, they were being removed from a place they chose to call home against their will, because a band of thugs that separated from them long ago, started to get vain about their appearances. I mean, Humans are not native to Pluto, Mars or Luna but that wouldn't make it any more right or wrong if someone else came along and decided that they had more strategic value to the (whatever term here) then Humans did, thereby forcibly removing them.
Could the plot have used some fine tuning to make better sense? Oh, sure, without a doubt it could have used some tweaking, and this isn't from a fanboy "CANON VIOLATION! I WOULD MAKE CORRECTIONS IF I WHERE IN CHARGE!!!" approach either, just a typical move goer who realizes theres one to many "wtf" moments in the flick.
I mean, come on...surely someone, somewhere once they learned who the Son'a really were, wouldn't have gone "So...this was all about scorned children trying to stick it to their parents?"
Also, many of the younger Ba'Ku were/are natives to the planet, does it make it right to remove them to?
Like I said I agree the movie had it's issues but to say the Sona and Starfleet were in the right because it was only 300 people, or they aren't native, etc.. like Picard said (something along the lines of it) "How many times was such a justification used to commit horrendous acts?"
And inconvenient? I'd consider being forceibly removed from my home, whether I was native to it or not, quite traumatic.
Could the plot have used some fine tuning to make better sense? Oh, sure, without a doubt it could have used some tweaking, and this isn't from a fanboy "CANON VIOLATION! I WOULD MAKE CORRECTIONS IF I WHERE IN CHARGE!!!" approach either, just a typical move goer who realizes theres one to many "wtf" moments in the flick.
I mean, come on...surely someone, somewhere once they learned who the Son'a really were, wouldn't have gone "So...this was all about scorned children trying to stick it to their parents?"
Also, many of the younger Ba'Ku were/are natives to the planet, does it make it right to remove them to?
Like I said I agree the movie had it's issues but to say the Sona and Starfleet were in the right because it was only 300 people, or they aren't native, etc.. like Picard said (something along the lines of it) "How many times was such a justification used to commit horrendous acts?"
And inconvenient? I'd consider being forceibly removed from my home, whether I was native to it or not, quite traumatic.
Well, referring to people who don't like the movie as "supposed" "fans" isn't a great start.
Leaving that aside, it's all in the eye of the beholder and to me, Insurrection is like watching a really crappy two-parter with utterly lame writing and characters who only superficially resemble their series counterparts.
You think it's a really good movie, which is fine. To each their own. Others think it's a terrible movie and several of them have articulated very good reasons for holding that view. Dismissing them as "supposed fans" is pretty ordinary, IMO.
I'd say "for more than one generation." If the colony's founding members had all died off and the Ba'ku Picard was protecting had lived their whole lives there, and thus the planet was the only home they'd known, then the moral imperative of the film would have been much stronger. As it stands, Anij and company are selfish, insular squatters rather than oppressed native minorities. And since the entire ethical thrust of Piller's intent was about native rights, the distinction is nontrivial.
Bingo. And it totally reverses the attitudes and positions of characters. Picard was "orders above all!" and about to tear Wesley a new arsehole about not following orders and trying to save the population in the "we have to move the Indians" episode -- now all of a sudden *he's* Wesley....
Jeez. Can we have a little consistency?
Trouble was, they already DID that episode. And in that one, Picard was NOT on the side of the angels.
So it's okay to move a group from an area to get a resource WITHOUT ACTUALLY TALKING TO THEM ABOUT GETTING ACCESS TO SAID RESOURCE as long as there not native to the area, still have members of the original group that moved there in their number and you ignore the group of young people that have only lived at the spot that didn't get pissy and leave so they could be intergalactic thugs that enslaved two species and supplied your an enemy you are at war with, with a substance that alllows the soilders to live and kill your people that for some reason you are willing to have dealings with despite that.
Actually he still has some consistency remember Picard pointed out that the Admiral's orders violated the Prime Directive which I believe pretty much overrides orders from an Admiral. Also remember the PD apparently says you can't remove the population of a planet even when said planet is turning uninhabitable because that would be interfering, so I'm pretty sure it prohibits moving them to get to something on the planet since that is interfering.
Now if the Sona went in their without the backing a Starfleet Admiral in would be an internal thing and Picard's hands would be tied, but they so Picard is free to kick their amoral asses without problems from Starfleet Command.
Plus I have to think they were trying to make Picard more like Kirk in Insurrection.
Oh, of course not. And the non-native status of the Ba'ku does make it extra stupid that Starfleet didn't bother to try talking to them; then again, the movie never comes out and says if they did or not, which raises the specter of the Ba'ku being unwilling to voluntarily relocate to help billions. But the ethical overtone of the film was always colored by the sorts of native relocations that I've been talking about, and which the situation in the film does not resemble.
I suppose that's another way the movie could have worked for me: if it just hadn't tried to oversell the moral conflict with it's grand comparisons and broad-brush allegories, I would have been much happier siding with the Ba'ku who were, after all, about to be screwed over by Starfleet and the Son'a.
It would have been better with robots and blue people.
Insurrection is the last one I saw in the theatre more than once.
I didn't hate it, I just found it pretty forgettable, like the rest of the TNG movies. Generations is probably my favorite of all of 'em. I will say that I liked Insurrection more than I liked FC.
It's a shame, really. The TNG movies could have been SO good, but they squandered all that potential, and now those characters are gone forever, our final memories of them being those mediocre films.
At least the TOS crew got a proper sendoff. TNG just seems so...unfinished.
It's a shame, really. The TNG movies could have been SO good, but they squandered all that potential, and now those characters are gone forever, our final memories of them being those mediocre films.
At least the TOS crew got a proper sendoff. TNG just seems so...unfinished.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Well said.
I had high expectations after growing up with TNG ( I was 13 when it started) and yeah, I didn't even get around to seeing Nemesis in the theatre.
IMO, the movie was very enjoyable both times I saw it in the theater. Not an epic TREK film in it's way as with some.
Now on the subject that Starfleet and the Sona' were in the right to remove the Baku because they were not natives is completely BS in my eyes. So all who say that answer a question? Say you move to a piece of land no one owns, which just by coincidence harbors a plant that will cure a variety of human diseases. You toil and work your hands to the bone for years, raising a family and making it your dream. All of a sudden someone (i.e. the government or some rich powerful company/or both) arrives and tells you, you will have to vacate that land because they want it and will destroy the area in it's processing of the cure. So in your mind's eye that since you are not native to the area it is justifiable?
Now on the subject that Starfleet and the Sona' were in the right to remove the Baku because they were not natives is completely BS in my eyes. So all who say that answer a question? Say you move to a piece of land no one owns, which just by coincidence harbors a plant that will cure a variety of human diseases. You toil and work your hands to the bone for years, raising a family and making it your dream. All of a sudden someone (i.e. the government or some rich powerful company/or both) arrives and tells you, you will have to vacate that land because they want it and will destroy the area in it's processing of the cure. So in your mind's eye that since you are not native to the area it is justifiable?
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