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Ground troops and ground combat

neozeks

Captain
Captain
Ah, the age old question - are there Starfleet Marines? ;)

I've been thinking and reading about the subject of ground warfare in Trek (there's a great analysis of it here http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWground.html). While starships and starship combat are definitely the key to any interstellar conflict and having a starship in orbit gives you a huge advantage over any enemy ground forces, having some ground troops does sometimes seem to be neccessary. Say, you want to take a major sensor or communication post, or rescue prisoners (so you can't simply blow the target from space) and the enemy position is concealed and they are using sensor dampening fields and/or transport scramblers (so you can't just stun them or transport them from orbit). And anyway, we have heard of and even seen UFP ground troops on DS9.

Of course, some of them could have been ship security personel detailed to ground duty. That doesn't really seem enough, though. For small scale missions and raids (especially improvised operations) they could prove enough. But if you're conducting a large scale operation or you have to hold the position longer, firstly, you won't have enough personel, and secondly, you'll be leaving your ships vulnerable in case of enemy attack and boarding. Some independent units are in order, then.

I don't think they're really Marines, though, not in the sense of the modern US Marine Corps ie. a large separate branch with a separate command structure, ranks, uniforms etc. I tend to think their relationship to Starfleet (in terms of size and structure) is more like the one between the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines, even closer. So they are, in essence, separate formations of Starfleet Security personel, with the same ranks etc. as shipboard security, but specifically trained and equiped for ground combat. Maybe there are even dedicated shuttle/runabout units for air/armored support. And Special Ops units. ;)

Actually, while these Starfleet Security Ground Combat Units, or whatever you want to call them, are probably the best and frontline troops, I think most 'grunts' are actually provided by UFP member states' 'National Guards' (which I believe to exist). Fighting in space is pretty much exclusivelly Starfleet's job, but resisting ground invasions and otherwise providing planetside security (and maybe even manning orbital defences) is more of a member state responsibility. So when Starfleet takes a location and needs further troops to hold it and thus relieve it's own units, or even when it needs units specialized for certain conditions (say, Elaysians for low-gravity environments or Andorians for frozen planets etc.) it uses federalized member states' forces.

Comments?
 
i prefer the term Starfleet Infantry. although historically Starfleet Marines is more accurate.

but some thickos on the net automatically conflate Marines with the USMC and forget that there are plenty of other Marines units out there, like the Spanish, Royal, Royal Netherlands, Polish, Russian, Chinese and South Korean....
 
The very idea that one would need a separate organization to fight infantry battles from aboard ships, rather than use either army or navy personnel for the job, is a bit artificial and burdened with historical ballast.

Fighting forces of yore had plenty of organizational quirks that had little to do with specialization or skills as such, and plenty to do with maintaining identity or tradition for the sake of identity or tradition. WWII was the conflict where Marines in many nations were first argued to be necessary because an opposed amphibious attack required specialists; before that, nobody had really managed or even tried to do opposed amphibious attack, specialist or no specialist. But even in WWII, the regular Army handled many an amphibious operation with distinction.

Is an opposed planetary landing in Star Trek a job that requires a specialist force? Or does the nature of Star Trek technology mean that special skills don't help, and that the ability to defeat opposition in a planetary assault depends solely on the "Navy" doing the insertion, or the "Army" doing the attacking once inserted? Marines today know how to combine types of firepower, vehicles and tactics to get from the sea to the shore and, to a degree, out of the shore and inland. But we've never seen any role for specialist firepower or vehicles or tactics in planetary insertion in Star Trek, even though we have seen space fights and ground fights.

Does that mean that no specialization exists in Trek? That a planetary assault would be conducted by shuttles and transporters just like any landing party operation? Then there would be no good reason for Marines as a specialist organization. Or does that merely mean that we failed to see a proper opposed landing? That's also rather likely, since Trek has shown very little war, DS9 being the exception, and the parts of war we have seen have held our "Navy" heroes in focus.

To have Marines, we'd need to have a Marine type of warfare. One may well exist, because moving from space to surface is wrought with danger even in Trek peacetime, and may become impossible if militarily opposed. Yet it's also possible that military opposition cannot markedly add to the dangers of space-to-surface traffic, or that the doctrines of Trek call for landing the regular Army at an unopposed location and simply declare impossible any attempt at opposed landing. Or that even the use of Army forces as such is declared impossible in face of the industrial-strength firepower of starships, and that the only job left for surface personnel is special ops of the sort a starship's security team can and will conduct.

Old arguments, no onscreen proof - mainly because it's singularly expensive to show Marine style of fighting on TV, especially with a scifi flavor to it. We simply won't get evidence one way or another any time soon...

Timo Saloniemi
 
i prefer the term Starfleet Infantry

Yeah, I like that term as well. 'Marines' seems a bit too much, well, fannish :p. And I don't think it's even really accurate. Marines are Marines to distinguish them from ordinary land forces, the Army. So, you need an Army first. If you have just one ground force, you won't call them Marines, you'll call them the Army, the Infantry, the Ground Forces or something like that. And we're barely sure Starfleet has even one ground force, let alone a second specialized one (or as Timo pointed, needs it; actually, Timo, I wasn't really discussing Marines as specialized units, I was more using it as a generic term for all Starfleet ground forces, as they ordinarily seem to be used on the net).
It's also worth pointing out that that the USMC, on which many base their ideas of SF Marines, barely even do true Marine stuff any more - they are essentially becoming a second Army, just a bit more elite (though, Army soldiers would probably disagree with that one :)) and mobile one.

Oh, and captcalhoun - I guess you're a fan of the New Frontier book series - I just had an amusing notion - Brikar shock troops :D. Wouldn't need any armor with those...
 
Comments?
Very few, I basically agree with all you said. :D

I especially agree with the notion that "Marines" are more likely specialized Security forces than an actual separate Command. Also, the idea of "National Guards" is very logical from many points of view, including history and tradition.

As for the naming, I would stay simple and call them Starfleet Ground Forces.
 
How about a series revolving around MACOs...that might be interesting if they could bring Steven Culp aboard. Really liked him in both Enterprise and the movie Thirteen Days.
 
This discussion gets brought up from time to time, however, offcialy and canonically speaking, there are no "Starfleet Marines." Though the concept has had some official thought put into it. In fact, word is Roddenberry once considered showing a Marine detachment on the Enterprise in TOS, though that never went anywhere.

Then, there's Trek V. The landing party on Nimbus III has several Starfleet officers with blue shirts on, which some behind the scenes sources identify as Marines. However, since they were not identified as Marines on screen, the idea has little canonical value.

Some like to think the Starfleet troops in black outfits seen in the DS9 episodes Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558 are Marines. However, I don't think there is anything identifying them as Marines either on screen or behind the scenes. In fact, there's no actual indication as to what they are. Are they just regular Starfleet officers? Are they in fact Marines? Or could they perhaps be a seperate organization, a Federation Army perhaps?

When Enterprise was in the early stages of development, one idea going around was that in the 22nd century starship security would be provided by the Starfleet Marine Corps, with Malcolm Reed being a Starfleet Marine. This idea was eventually abandoned and Reed and his security personel were standard Starfleet Security as seen in all the other Treks.

However, Enterprise would later revisit the ground forces concept when they introduced the MACOs. Numerous episodes of Enterprise make it very clear that the MACOs are a seperate organization in the 22nd century. But, there is still the nagging question of what happens to the MACOs after the Federation was founded, like in the 23rd and 24th centuries. Are they still around? Were they absorbed into Starfleet? Did they become the so called Starfleet Marine Corps? For that matter, could they be those troops we saw in DS9?
 
Personally, I like to think that Starfleet has dedicated combat units within its security division that are trained to fight in a variety of different planetary and even zero-gee environments.
 
They probably have a few small special units, commandos for covert missions and hit and run during war time. But there is absolutely no need for marines or army at all. What would they need them for?
 
Wouldn't it be "United Federation of Planets Marine Corps" (UFMC?) and not "Starfleet Marines"? I mean, go try calling a member of the United States Marine Corps a "Navy Marine" and see how that works out for you.
 
^ It is entirely possible that by Trek's time, things are even more unified. In TOS, Kirk did say "We're a combined service".
 
Wouldn't it be "United Federation of Planets Marine Corps" (UFMC?) and not "Starfleet Marines"? I mean, go try calling a member of the United States Marine Corps a "Navy Marine" and see how that works out for you.
Then again, it's the "Royal Marines", not the "United Kingdom Marines", so the nomenclature is anything but consistent even nowadays. The similarity between the US and the Federation can go only so far.
 
Some like to think the Starfleet troops in black outfits seen in the DS9 episodes Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558 are Marines. However, I don't think there is anything identifying them as Marines either on screen or behind the scenes. In fact, there's no actual indication as to what they are. Are they just regular Starfleet officers? Are they in fact Marines? Or could they perhaps be a seperate organization, a Federation Army perhaps?

Seeing how, at least in The Siege of AR-558, they have Starfleet ranks (and even the guy in the Nor the Battle... was a chief, according to Memory Alpha) and that the black uniforms resemble ordinary Starfleet ones, are colorcoded and all that, I'd say they were definitely members of Starfleet. But were they ordinary ship crew? I guess it's possible, but I doubt it. I already explained why i don't think they are USMC- style Marines, though.

However, Enterprise would later revisit the ground forces concept when they introduced the MACOs. Numerous episodes of Enterprise make it very clear that the MACOs are a seperate organization in the 22nd century. But, there is still the nagging question of what happens to the MACOs after the Federation was founded, like in the 23rd and 24th centuries. Are they still around? Were they absorbed into Starfleet? Did they become the so called Starfleet Marine Corps? For that matter, could they be those troops we saw in DS9?
MACOs had Army-style ranks, so I don't think those troops were MACOs. I like to think that MACO continued to exist, as Earth's 'National Guard', with maybe a part of them transfering to UFP Starfleet to form the nucleus of it's own Ground Forces.

Then again, it's the "Royal Marines", not the "United Kingdom Marines", so the nomenclature is anything but consistent even nowadays.
It should be said, though, that in the case of the British, 'Royal' pretty much stands in for 'UK' - Royal Navy, RAF etc...
 
Besides, the term "Starfleet Marines" just sounds cooler. :)

Not to me. to me it sounds about as cool as calling something the "Navy Army". Just clunky coming out of the mouth.

What would you call them? I don't like "MACO", it sounds like it should be immediately preceded by a car horn and an 'Uh-oh, better get...' ;)

Then again, MACO could be just a nickname anyway. Hoshi once said it stood for 'Military Assault Command' but that sounds even worse. I think they just invented that one after the fact (besides, it seems obvious - MACO = MArine COrps). The full, literal name is probably something like United Earth Marine Corps.
 
^^^
In day-to-day usage they'd just be called "Marines". In formal usage United Federation of Planets Marine Corps, abbreviated as UFMC.
 
We know there is some kind of ground combat service, or a Fed Branch that utilizes army ranks. Remember Colonel Went from TUC?

I too like the use of Infantry as the ground forces, rather than "Starfleet Marines". Maybe "Federal Infantry" or something.

Also, an occupation/planet-based force would likely have an aerial department as well. So, Federation Aerospace Services?
 
Also, an occupation/planet-based force would likely have an aerial department as well. So, Federation Aerospace Services?
Well, I'm not sure they will need it, but personally I like the idea. A bit of Top Gun into Star Trek, so to speak.

The question about fighters in Starfleet is as old and that about marines: given on-screen evidences, they are not very likely (it's doubtful they would pack the punch to penetrate shields, and starships seem perfectly capable of surgical strikes against ground target from orbit). That said, who cares: if it makes for good narrative, I'm all for it.

Going into uber-nerd territory, we use both Starfleet Ground Forces and the Starfleet Aerospace Force (SAF... wink wink, nudge nudge) in our little RPG campaign, and they are quite fun to play. We even see a pilot white-grey-black uniform in the Voyager episode Drive, so that will lend some credibility to the idea.
 
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