Will there ever be any novels set between 2161 and 2254?

[Rush Limborg]

^Well...Final Reflection's basically apochriphal (I...think that's how you spell it) now....

"Apocryphal."

Thanks.

And all Star Trek novels are apocryphal. The Final Reflection is simply out of continuity with later canonical installments and later novels.

Technically, yes. But, hey--in the spirit of apochrypha (i.e. ignore it, because it ain't real), I'd take Final Reflection with more salt than I would most of the books.

 

[Therin of Andor]

"Apocryphal."

Rush, this is one of those words I can never remember how to spell. Next time, just drop your approximation of the word into Google. Google will then ask, "Do you mean "apocryphal'?"

Faster than a dictionary.

(i.e. ignore it, because it ain't real)

Ignore it? None of it is real. Why not "Not canon, of course, and not in current continuity, but still fascinating!"?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Thanks.

 

[Procutus]

Other ship classes in that gap include the Mann (which seemed to be of prominence in The Final Reflection) and the Bonaventure.

Seeing those reminds me of how much I enjoyed the ST Spaceflight Chronology (before it became apocryphal). I no there's no demand any more for these types of non-fiction Trek books, but I'd love to see an updated version that takes into account the period of time from say, the Mars landing up to the late 24th century, done in the same manner as the original book.

 

[David Brennon]

The shot of Spock "seeing" Vulcan in the sky of Delta Vega is a physical impossibility (no planet that close to a hot desert world like Vulcan could possibly be frozen over), and it only appeared in a hallucinatory mind-meld sequence. Even screenwriter Roberto Orci has acknowledged that it's most likely a symbolic representation of Spock sensing Vulcan's destruction telepathically.

And clearly this isn't the same Delta Vega seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." It's certainly not impossible for two planets to have the same name (how many Romes and Londons and Alexandrias and Springfields are there in the world?).

Before I start, I just want to say that I am not trying to start a fight. I just re-watched the movie and noted something that is a little confusing to me if the above statement is to be true.

During the mind meld with Kirk, Spock-Prime says that Nero put him there specifically so he could witness the destruction of Vulcan.

I do think that it's a load of crap because, just like Christopher says here, an Ice planet and a Desert planet can't be that close together, it wouldn't be possible. But the words are there on screen none the less. Just one of those things we have to deal with I guess.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Spock-Prime says that Nero put him there specifically so he could witness the destruction of Vulcan.

Marooned him on a desolate planet with a small, almost-forgotten, Starfleet or Federation outpost, with equipment tuned in to show Vulcan, but with Spock helpless to prevent its destruction.

Still fits.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Being a Vulcan, Spock could "witness" the destruction telepathically like he did with the Intrepid.

 

[Ronald Held]

Certainly not optically, It may be the case that these Vulcans in this Universe are different enough that he does not feel them all die?

 

[Sci]

Certainly not optically, It may be the case that these Vulcans in this Universe are different enough that he does not feel them all die?

On what basis do you make that speculation?

 

[Christopher]

Certainly not optically, It may be the case that these Vulcans in this Universe are different enough that he does not feel them all die?

That makes no sense. The timelines only diverged 25 years before -- after Spock's own birth, as a matter of fact. So this is as much Spock Prime's "native" reality as the other one is. Physically, genetically, psychologically, these are the same Vulcans, except for those who are younger than 25.

 

[David Brennon]

While I agree with you guys that it could be that way, the evidence on screen, what is seen and what is said, leads me to believe otherwise. While it may defy logic for an ice planet and a desert planet to be within eyesight of each other, the film clearly shows Spock-Prime seeing his homeworld being torn apart, and he says he was put there to witness its destruction. If I was Nero, and Spock could "witness" the destruction without actually having to see it as one person suggested, I'd want Spock with me so I could see his pain (for that matter, I'd want to have him with me locked up so he couldn't foul up my plans, but that's another story!). I don't think that he was using any technology to witness the destruction, he was simply looking up at the sky. It seems to me that it was the only image inside the meld that was impossible (with the exception of a supernova threatening to destroy the galaxy, but again that's another story), so why would they add in one thing that wasn't literal truth? If Spock is showing Kirk his experiences, why show him one image that isn't what actually happened?

It just seems to be a bit of a plot hole in my mind.

I know we want to justify it, explain it away as being something that it could be, but it doesn't make much sense to me either way. At the end of the day it looks like the writers made a little mistake. They didn't want Kirk to be marooned on a lush world, that's not punishment. They didn't want it to be a desert world, that's just a rehash of Vulcan and repeating something like that would be visually "boring". Cold is one of the other harsh type environments but it wouldn't fit with the location... but I don't think they minded bending reality for a little fun.

The writers may have at one point said it was most likely a symbolic representation of Spock sensing Vulcan's destruction telepathically, but as was argued to me before, we can't take that at face value. We have to go with what we see and hear on screen and to me the evidence points to 1) Spock having witnessed his home's destruction and 2) the Writers having made a technical error in favor of having fun with the story.

 

[Sci]

While I agree with you guys that it could be that way, the evidence on screen, what is seen and what is said, leads me to believe otherwise. While it may defy logic for an ice planet and a desert planet to be within eyesight of each other, the film clearly shows Spock-Prime seeing his homeworld being torn apart, and he says he was put there to witness its destruction.

The film clearly shows Spock viewing the destruction of Vulcan... in a mind-meld sequence filled with fantastic and metaphorical imagery.

Not exactly definitive evidence that he literally saw Vulcan's destruction, especially given the already-established ability of Vulcans to detect mass death from across interstellar distances.

 

[EmperorKalan]

And all Star Trek novels are apocryphal. The Final Reflection is simply out of continuity with later canonical installments and later novels.

A lot of the details (especially tech ones) are now out-of-continuity, but is there anything about the basic framework of the story that's simply unadaptable to later continuity? That's not my recollection.

 

[David Brennon]

While I agree with you guys that it could be that way, the evidence on screen, what is seen and what is said, leads me to believe otherwise. While it may defy logic for an ice planet and a desert planet to be within eyesight of each other, the film clearly shows Spock-Prime seeing his homeworld being torn apart, and he says he was put there to witness its destruction.

The film clearly shows Spock viewing the destruction of Vulcan... in a mind-meld sequence filled with fantastic and metaphorical imagery.

Not exactly definitive evidence that he literally saw Vulcan's destruction, especially given the already-established ability of Vulcans to detect mass death from across interstellar distances.

I just re-watched the whole mind meld scene and here is the breakdown of what happened in it:

• Supernova- We start by flying towards the star that will in moments go supernova, followed quickly there after by it actually happening.
• Spock with Romulans- We see Spock with several Vulcanoids we assume are Romulans based off of what he says. One is nods his head, I assume because of something Spock has just said that we can't hear.
• Construction of his future ship- Exactly what it says. Very short shot
• Red Matter- Several people are aboard the ship playing around with the Red Matter as Spock explains what his plan is.
• Flying to supernova- He's just flying. Another short shot.
• Destruction of Romulus- We see the shockwave rip Romulus apart.
• Spock launching Red Matter- We see Spock at work, extracting the Red Matter and his ship launch it into the Supernova, forming a Black Hole.
• Meeting with Nero- We see him speaking with Nero and both ships are pulled into the Black Hole.
• Nero attacking the Kelvin- Rehash of the first scene of the film.
• Nero waiting 25 years- Nero is topless and angry looking. Not much there.
• Spock's capture- Nero was waiting for Spock and captures him, letting the Ambassador in on his dastardly plan. Spock's exact words as this happens:

  "He captured my vessel and spared my life for one reason: So that I would know his pain. He beamed me here so that I could observe his vengence. As he would be helpless to save his planet, I would be helpless to save mine."

• Spock watching destruction of Vulcan- Spock is marooned on Delta Vega by Nero and he looks up to see the destruction of Vulcan.

The only scenes in there that display anything fantastic are the first and last, with maybe Spock's knowledge of what Nero was doing for 25 years counting as well. That is 3 out of 12 mind meld scenes that contain anything outside the bounds of reality, the rest is fairly straight forward and need not be classified under "Fantastic" or "Metaphorical"... in fact while I'm not English professional, I didn't see anything in there that would be considered metaphorical, I welcome being corrected though.

The only reason I think that the last scene has anything Fantastic in it at all is for the reasons stated above (Ice planet near Desert planet and other such things). The first is a little fantastic as well (soaring through the cosmos, watching the star erupt).

My point here is that we can justify him seeing his planet destroyed, then again we can also justify it being just a hallucination if you want. I personally feel there is more evidence to believe he watched it happen, but that doesn't make me right.

After all the conversations we've had here, I guess the only thing we can believe is what we see on screen, but this particular but is open to some interpretation. I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this one though, people are going to see different things (clearly).

Interpret it the way you want, I'm just telling you all what I'm seeing from the film.

 

[Ronald Held]

Only of you believe the timelines diverse when Nero arrived, which I do not.

 

[David Brennon]

Only of you believe the timelines diverse when Nero arrived, which I do not.

What is it you believe?

 

[Therin of Andor]

as was argued to me before, we can't take that at face value. We have to go with what we see and hear on screen.

Humongous metal letters spelling S T A R T R E K float in space, not far from the scene of the USS Kelvin's demise.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Only of you believe the timelines diverse when Nero arrived, which I do not.

I prefer to believe what the writers and director said and showed in the movie and in interviews. For better or worse, they are the current pantheon of Gods who control the Trek Universes. Their will is paramount. (pun not intended)

 

[Nerys Myk]

While I agree with you guys that it could be that way, the evidence on screen, what is seen and what is said, leads me to believe otherwise. While it may defy logic for an ice planet and a desert planet to be within eyesight of each other, the film clearly shows Spock-Prime seeing his homeworld being torn apart, and he says he was put there to witness its destruction.

The film clearly shows Spock viewing the destruction of Vulcan... in a mind-meld sequence filled with fantastic and metaphorical imagery.

Not exactly definitive evidence that he literally saw Vulcan's destruction, especially given the already-established ability of Vulcans to detect mass death from across interstellar distances.

I just re-watched the whole mind meld scene and here is the breakdown of what happened in it:

• Supernova- We start by flying towards the star that will in moments go supernova, followed quickly there after by it actually happening.
• Spock with Romulans- We see Spock with several Vulcanoids we assume are Romulans based off of what he says. One is nods his head, I assume because of something Spock has just said that we can't hear.
• Construction of his future ship- Exactly what it says. Very short shot
• Red Matter- Several people are aboard the ship playing around with the Red Matter as Spock explains what his plan is.
• Flying to supernova- He's just flying. Another short shot.
• Destruction of Romulus- We see the shockwave rip Romulus apart.
• Spock launching Red Matter- We see Spock at work, extracting the Red Matter and his ship launch it into the Supernova, forming a Black Hole.
• Meeting with Nero- We see him speaking with Nero and both ships are pulled into the Black Hole.
• Nero attacking the Kelvin- Rehash of the first scene of the film.
• Nero waiting 25 years- Nero is topless and angry looking. Not much there.
• Spock's capture- Nero was waiting for Spock and captures him, letting the Ambassador in on his dastardly plan. Spock's exact words as this happens:

  "He captured my vessel and spared my life for one reason: So that I would know his pain. He beamed me here so that I could observe his vengence. As he would be helpless to save his planet, I would be helpless to save mine."

• Spock watching destruction of Vulcan- Spock is marooned on Delta Vega by Nero and he looks up to see the destruction of Vulcan.

The only scenes in there that display anything fantastic are the first and last, with maybe Spock's knowledge of what Nero was doing for 25 years counting as well. That is 3 out of 12 mind meld scenes that contain anything outside the bounds of reality, the rest is fairly straight forward and need not be classified under "Fantastic" or "Metaphorical"... in fact while I'm not English professional, I didn't see anything in there that would be considered metaphorical, I welcome being corrected though.

The only reason I think that the last scene has anything Fantastic in it at all is for the reasons stated above (Ice planet near Desert planet and other such things). The first is a little fantastic as well (soaring through the cosmos, watching the star erupt).

My point here is that we can justify him seeing his planet destroyed, then again we can also justify it being just a hallucination if you want. I personally feel there is more evidence to believe he watched it happen, but that doesn't make me right.

After all the conversations we've had here, I guess the only thing we can believe is what we see on screen, but this particular but is open to some interpretation. I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this one though, people are going to see different things (clearly).

Interpret it the way you want, I'm just telling you all what I'm seeing from the film.

Most of therse would have to be Spock or Spock's brain recreation of those events, since none are seen from Spock's actual point of view. The writers have stated what we (and Kirk) saw was not what Spock actually saw, but his interpretation of the events. And they are the locals Gods. (see above)

 

[BrotherBenny]

I prefer to think of the Delta Vega issue that since Vulcan is a desert world, they dragged a small ice moon into the system to act as a water source. It could be in a high orbit of Vulcan itself, and was on the other side of the planet when the planet went boom but was still far enough away not to get pulled in.

Christopher, does that make any sense or am I just babbling?