James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)

[Lookingglassman]

I loved it. I went to see it for the pure enjoyment of it. When I first heard about this movie, I thought it was about aliens living on a planet with dinosaurs. I had no plans to see it.

Then one day I saw the trailer and I was like, "Where did the gunships come from? What is with all the fighting?" So I was hooked!

People think their are all kinds of "evil empire" messages in it. I didnt watch it for that. I watched it for pure entertainment.

 

[Arlo]

I’ve debated with myself long and hard about actually making this post, but after 52 pages, I guess it’s time...

And a well thought out post, thank you.

For my part, I enjoy romantic movies just fine (just ask my wife, with whom I will often see such films on "date night". The problem is, I enjoy adult romance (as in mature, not pornographic). Avatars was an adolescent's idea of romance. So with nothing in that plot to hold my interest, I was left with the visuals. Which were just fine, but after 40 minutes or so, became tiresome.

 

[Brit]

I’ve debated with myself long and hard about actually making this post, but after 52 pages, I guess it’s time...

And a well thought out post, thank you.

For my part, I enjoy romantic movies just fine (just ask my wife, with whom I will often see such films on "date night". The problem is, I enjoy adult romance (as in mature, not pornographic). Avatars was an adolescent's idea of romance. So with nothing in that plot to hold my interest, I was left with the visuals. Which were just fine, but after 40 minutes or so, became tiresome.

Thanks Arlo, I do appreciate that. As a Trek fan fiction writer (if you knew my other name-the one not used on the BBS LOL-and my site then you would also know that I tend to write "adult" themes).

What I think that "Avatar" may well do is widen the audience for Science Fiction to include teenage girls and more women. We are also hoping that editors will suddenly realize that women do and will read Science Fiction and that there is a market for Science Fiction Romance.

Most of us female Trek fic writers will tell you that we got into this because we were not finding the stories we wanted to read or see.

And I hear you about the adult (and not pornographic) content. I would have liked to see the bonding between male and female explored. If the link works between Na'vi and animal, what would it be like for lovers?

I did download the script from the Fox site and there is a lot more detail there than was shown.

Brit

 

[Ryan]

I thought that was Seffridge's best moment. The chips, the way he pushes on the joystick, his nonchalance. Good, graceful, character moments that Cameron and his actors never get credit for.

What do you mean he never gets credit for it? It's practically Cameron's hallmark as a writer-director.

Amongst his fans, yes. But sometimes it seems you wouldn't know it since the detractors came out of the wood work since Titanic.

Who exactly? If there's an army of James Cameron detractors out there they sure are quiet. Rotten Tomatoes has Avatar at 82%. It's rated "universal acclaim" at metacritic. Roger Ebert gave it four stars. IMDB users have rated it #32 in the top 250 movies of all time.

 

[Ryan]

“Avatar’s” plot is pure romance trope – boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, but boy and girl can never ever be together because of some great obstacle that keeps them apart. The tale is how the couple overcomes that obstacle. This is very basic stuff and a plot that has been used hundreds or thousands of times and will be continued to be used because it works as a plot for a huge number of people.

Now if you don’t care much for Romance then you have problems with “Avatar’s” plot, but if you are like me and my friends then you adore “Avatar’s” plot. That fact doesn’t make either of us wrong.

You're generous calling that a romance. If you want a real example of sci-romance I'd suggest The Time Traveler's Wife which came out last summer.

People can dislike Avatar for the reasons they gave. There's no need for armchair psychoanalysis.

 

[bigdaddy]

You're generous calling that a romance. If you want a real example of sci-romance I'd suggest The Time Traveler's Wife which came out last summer.

Now talk about bad movies...

 

[Kaijima]

What I think that "Avatar" may well do is widen the audience for Science Fiction to include teenage girls and more women. We are also hoping that editors will suddenly realize that women do and will read Science Fiction and that there is a market for Science Fiction Romance.

Most of us female Trek fic writers will tell you that we got into this because we were not finding the stories we wanted to read or see.

And I hear you about the adult (and not pornographic) content. I would have liked to see the bonding between male and female explored. If the link works between Na'vi and animal, what would it be like for lovers?

I did download the script from the Fox site and there is a lot more detail there than was shown.

Brit

You make a great point, though I think that the way Avatar handled its romance may have been for the best. It is "simplistic" and perhaps that equates adolescent, but sci-fi fans must step outside their own shoes for a moment: Avatar's biggest challenge was selling a mainstream audience not just on science fiction, not just on a sci-fi romance, but on a sci-fi romance where one person is an alien and the other person is a human who must be justified in abandoning his humanity and /becoming/ an alien. And we're supposed to identify with this and not end up confused.

That'd be a tricky storyline to play for regular science fiction viewers and readers. So, in the end, Avatar may have been wise to play it safe. Getting into details on-screen about telepathic mating bonds, sensuality, emotional affects, and such, likely would be even more distractingly weird for the uninitiated viewer!

But it is entirely possible the film will cause a lot of people to look at science fiction in a new way; that's what matters. The fact is, Avatar has already had that effect on a lot of people. Many have expressed their own surprise that they were able to take the Na'vi seriously and didn't see them as the silly, geeky characters that people commonly think of when they hear "sci-fi" and "aliens".

Avatar opens the door for someone else to take that hook and run with it more deeply.

 

[Brit]

You're generous calling that a romance. If you want a real example of sci-romance I'd suggest The Time Traveler's Wife which came out last summer.

"The Time Traveler's Wife" is romantic Science Fiction, which means the emphasis is on "Science Fiction." Science Fiction Romance is half and half and the story has to have both elements. I'm not being generous, simply identifying something that I do know a lot about, like I said before "Avatar" is pure romance trope.

From the Romance Writers of America site

Two basic elements comprise every romance novel: a central love story and an emotionally-satisfying and optimistic ending.

A Central Love Story: The main plot centers around two individuals falling in love and struggling to make the relationship work.

An Emotionally-Satisfying and Optimistic Ending: In a romance, the lovers who risk and struggle for each other and their relationship are rewarded with emotional justice and unconditional love.

"Avatar" has Jake (human) and Neytiri (Na'vi) two different species - the obstacle. "Games of Command" has Admiral Kel-Paten (cyborg) and Tasha Sebastian (starship captain with a hidden past). "Moonstruck" has Admiral Brit (Stoneheart) Bantar, and her second in command and former enemy Rorkken Finn. "Gabriel's Ghost" (winner of the 2006 Rita Award for best paranormal) and its sequel "Shades of Dark" has Gabriel (Sully) Sullivan (former monk, mercenary, and telepath) and Chasidah Bergren (court-martialed Starship Captain). These are much closer in plot and to the above description, than Audrey Niffenegger's "The Time Traveler's Wife."

I'm not putting down the book, only pointing out that it is not exactly Science Fiction Romance. The other thing all my examples have is a kick-ass heroine that is perfectly capable of holding her own with anyone, which is also very common in Science Fiction Romance.

I have heard great things about "The Time Traveler's Wife," but it isn't the type of story line that I care much for, and I'd be more inclined to identify it as fantasy. I really prefer "Avatar" and the above mentioned books.

I wasn't psychoanalyzing anyone, only pointing out an obvious fact that a few people are uncomfortable with "Avatar's" plot, and giving one possible reason. Do you have a problem with "Avatar" being Science Fiction Romance?

Brit

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Do you have a problem with "Avatar" being Science Fiction Romance?

Avatar is an action movie in a science-fiction setting with an environmental theme and a romantic subplot.

You can call it "science fiction romance" if you want, because that element certainly exists in the movie, but by doing that, you're deliberately forgetting key elements of the narrative.

 

[stj]

Jake's motivation for rejecting the surgery for paralysis of his human body is his love for Neytiri. In one sense, Avatar as Jake's story, the rest of the movie is merely denouement.
For Jake, the "treehugger crap" is a means to a (happy) end. The science fiction romance thesis is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Brit]

Do you have a problem with "Avatar" being Science Fiction Romance?

Avatar is an action movie in a science-fiction setting with an environmental theme and a romantic subplot.

You can call it "science fiction romance" if you want, because that element certainly exists in the movie, but by doing that, you're deliberately forgetting key elements of the narrative.

Science Fiction Romance has to have two elements, one a love story and two the science fiction element and one cannot exist without the other without taking something away from the basic story. To work as a plot "Avatar" has to have the Science Fiction element, but it also has to have the love story element too. It wouldn't have worked without either plot elements, both are key elements and are essential to the story told.

And by the way "Romance" can also be action/adventure, and is leaning toward action/adventure more and more. Heroines are becoming more active rather than passive, because the people that read "Romance" want heroines that do things, adventurous things.

There is this quote from James Cameron himself reported on “The Galaxy Express”

"I like women. I like how they think. I like how they see the world. The funny thing is, with Avatar I set out to do a pretty male adventure movie: a stranger in a strange land encountering this other culture. But in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, 'Well, in my life, the way I've learned the most is through relationships.' I've always found that lovers tend to be teachers. So I took that idea and made the story. What we found as we were editing the film was that the emotion was so strong, we just said, 'F-- it, it's a love story."

“The Galaxy Express” December 17, 2009
http://www.thegalaxyexpress.net/2009/12/avatar-why-i-heart-james-cameron.html

Dec. 18, 2009 “Face Book” – Susan Grant

“What an adventure. I was transfixed...spellbound. AVATAR: best...movie...ever. Thank you James Cameron for giving the women characters REAL roles and making them a vital part of this flick. Hollywood directors of SF blockbusters: PLEASE take notes. “

Susan Grant is the author of several Science Fiction Romances including “Moonstruck” and the soon to be released space pirate story “Sureblood.”

So again I ask you what is the problem with calling “Avatar” Science Fiction Romance?

Brit

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Science Fiction Romance has to have two elements, one a love story and two the science fiction element and one cannot exist without the other without taking something away from the basic story. To work as a plot "Avatar" has to have the Science Fiction element, but it also has to have the love story element too. It wouldn't have worked without either plot elements, both are key elements and are essential to the story told.

Not really, actually.

Yes, there is a love story in Avatar, but it's a subplot, it's the 'B' story. If instead of falling in love with a woman, Sully had simply embraced the Na'vi culture because he liked it, the main story wouldn't have been affected. It wouldn't be quite the same movie but it would work perfectly fine.

No offense meant, but I think your love for that particular subgenre is blinding you a little.

 

[Brit]

No offense meant, but I think your love for that particular subgenre is blinding you a little.

None taken, but I'm not too sure about your eyesight either.

Brit

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

None taken, but I'm not too sure about your eyesight either.

Of course, you're welcome to express your counter-arguments.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

What's the point of strict labeling anyways? Seems like a purely semantic exercise, IMO. Call Avatar Science Fiction Romance, romantic Science Fiction, "a pretty male adventure movie" with an organic love story, or whatever. The label matters much, much less than the product taken as a whole.

Ultimately, my issues with Avatar have very little to do with the fact that it has a love story (the element of love certainly adds to the overall film, the overall motivations of the characters ... it's a positive element) -- it's in the thoroughly predictable nature of that love story. Is it universal? Sure. Does that mean it had to be predictable? Nope. Add in the predictable nature of the rest of the story (Jake's immersion into the Na'Vi culture, his conquest of the dragon, the final battle, etc.) and you've got the central elements to my criticism of the film.

Does this mean that I disliked the film? Not at all. I was entertained. But I also believe there are legitimate criticisms of the story and characters.

If we're to examine the film strictly through the lens of "Science Fiction Romance" (however that might be defined), that's perfectly fine. Personally, as an academic exercise, I think it'd be a fascinating to explore the story. But assuming that the reactions of any one critic is based on a similar lens is, IMO, too presumptive. There are many, many other lenses through which people can judge the picture. Plus, such a perspective seems focused on the people who are criticizing the film, rather than on the ideas presented by those people.

 

[Brit]

What's the point of strict labeling anyways? Seems like a purely semantic exercise, IMO. Call Avatar Science Fiction Romance, romantic Science Fiction, "a pretty male adventure movie" with an organic love story, or whatever. The label matters much, much less than the product taken as a whole.

Actually you are on the right course I think, it's been purposed by no less than Jacqueline Lichtenberg herself, that the walls between genres are melting right now. Problem is that book editors and publishers are being slow to understand much less accept this kind of change. It's another reason I am so pleased with "Avatar's" popularity.

"Avatar's" appeal to a broad base of people with different tastes is a very good thing and one that I believe can ultimately pull Science Fiction with all it's subgenres to the forefront again.

Brit

 

[Yeoman Randi]

So how much did it seem to ape from Dances with Wolves? I've been hearing a lot of comparisons, but I don't know how much of that is true versus how much of that is just online bickering.

Wow. We saw Avatar last night. That is exactly what i thought while watching it, and i hadn't heard this previoiusly. It reminded me of DwW a lot!

Visually Avatar was stunning. The plot, script and much of the acting sucked verily.

I did think that Zoe's performance was outstanding though.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Actually you are on the right course I think, it's been purposed by no less than Jacqueline Lichtenberg herself, that the walls between genres are melting right now.

It's an interesting point but I think it's nothing new. Star Wars is a mix of several different genres. So is Macbeth. I guess it's just better to see genres as elements of literary criticism rather than closed little boxes.

 

[Tom Servo]

So how much did it seem to ape from Dances with Wolves? I've been hearing a lot of comparisons, but I don't know how much of that is true versus how much of that is just online bickering.

Wow. We saw Avatar last night. That is exactly what i thought while watching it, and i hadn't heard this previoiusly. It reminded me of DwW a lot!

Visually Avatar was stunning. The plot, script and much of the acting sucked verily.

I did think that Zoe's performance was outstanding though.

Now this I don't get. Fine, some people didn't like the plot. Fine. But the acting? It was fine, it was actually very good. Not once during the film was I unconvinced of the acting.

 

[T'Baio]

I'm just glad it topped Transformers 2 as the #1 movie of the year.

How depressing would that have been, Transformers 2 being the most successful movie of the year?

Blech...