Pon farr and Vulcan sexuality in general

[Mach5]

I'm pretty sure we already had this thread, but lets settle this thing once and for all!

Do Vulcan couples have sex only during pon farr (once every seven years), or do they do it whenever they feel like it, and pon farr is only a time when they MUST do it?

 

[FordSVT]

The latter. It would be stupid for any species to only mate once every seven years, especially if they all had to do it at completely different times as seems to be the case. When Vulcans get married would they wait until Pon Farr to consummate it or try to have a child? Wouldn't think so.

Pon farr is an irresistible urge, but I don't believe it's the only time they mate.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I see no evidence of Romulan Pon Farr. The answer is therefore obvious.

 

[apenpaap]

I'd say the Pon Farr is more like a safeguard to ensure that they mate at least every seven years. Otherwise their logical nature could lead to their extinction.

 

[Mach5]

I agree, having sex only once in seven years makes zero sense, but here's a thing that bugs me:

From ENT: "Fusion"

KOV: We were just discussing Vulcan mating rituals. Most of my people are extremely uncomfortable talking about such things. So many inhibitions. Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.

TUCKER: Seven years?

REED: Frightening.

KOV: Over the past few years, we've been developing methods to accelerate the mating cycle.

So according to this, Vulcan males' sex drive is dormant in between two pon farr's, and women don't go trough pon farr at all?

Personally, I just dismiss this whole conversation as a goof, like the one in DS9 when Bashir said that Eugenics wars happened in 22. century (or whenever)...

 

[DevilEyes]

Let me quote D.C. Fontana (Edward Gross, Mark E. Altman, Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages, Little Brown & Co, 1995. p. 53) :

Vulcans mate normally any time they want to. However, every seven years you do the ritual, the ceremony, the whole thing. The biological urge. You must, but any other time is any other emotion - humanoid emotion - when you're in love. When you want to, you know, when the urge is there, you do it. This every-seven-years business was taken too literally by too many people who don't stop and understand. We didn't mean it only every seven years. I mean, every seven years would be a little bad, and it would not explain the Vulcans of many different ages which are not seven years apart.

I agree, having sex only once in seven years makes zero sense, but here's a thing that bugs me:

From ENT: "Fusion"

KOV: We were just discussing Vulcan mating rituals. Most of my people are extremely uncomfortable talking about such things. So many inhibitions. Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.

TUCKER: Seven years?

REED: Frightening.

KOV: Over the past few years, we've been developing methods to accelerate the mating cycle.

So according to this, Vulcan males' sex drive is dormant in between two pon farr's, and women don't go trough pon farr at all?

Personally, I just dismiss this whole conversation as a goof, like the one in DS9 when Bashir said that Eugenics wars happened in 22. century (or whenever)...

That conversation bugged me, too.

But a little later, ENT itself showed that Vulcan women do go through Pon Farr.

 

[apenpaap]

I agree, having sex only once in seven years makes zero sense, but here's a thing that bugs me:

From ENT: "Fusion"

KOV: We were just discussing Vulcan mating rituals. Most of my people are extremely uncomfortable talking about such things. So many inhibitions. Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.

TUCKER: Seven years?

REED: Frightening.

KOV: Over the past few years, we've been developing methods to accelerate the mating cycle.

So according to this, Vulcan males' sex drive is dormant in between two pon farr's, and women don't go trough pon farr at all?

Personally, I just dismiss this whole conversation as a goof, like the one in DS9 when Bashir said that Eugenics wars happened in 22. century (or whenever)...

It was a pretty young Vulcan, IIRC. Maybe Vulcans take longer to mature, and he hadn't had his first pon farr yet. I doubt if you asked a ten year old human child about our reproduction you would get a very good answer.

But a little later, ENT itself showed that Vulcan women do go through Pon Farr.

Does this contradict canon?

 

[SFRabid]

And then there was Trip and T'Pol outside of Pon Farr. What did she say after the first time? "I was just curious..."

 

[Mysterion]

I don't think it's a matter of Vulcan's not being able to have sex except during pon farr, but during pon farr the have to. I supose there might be some sort of social movement on Vulcan that discourages sexual activities except for during pon farr for some sort of perceived logical reason.

 

[DevilEyes]

But a little later, ENT itself showed that Vulcan women do go through Pon Farr.

Does this contradict canon?

I'd find it very strange if Vulcan females did not have a Pon Farr. I'd also find that there was a sexist and outdated idea at the bottom of that... you know, that it's natural for males have an irresistible urge for sex while females... do not? ... and are just being, um, accommodating, in order to help their men?

More surprising is that VOY introduced the idea that even non-Vulcans can get Pon Farr, as if it was an infection, through a telepathic link with a Vulcan undergoing Pon Farr (B'Elanna getting the Pon Farr from Vorik).

Here's how one poster tried to reconcile all the different bits of info about Pon Farr from various Trek shows:

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3698410&postcount=25

I think they do because it would only make sense IMO, but in TSFS Saavik says that "Vulcan males" undergo Pon Farr and mentions nothing about females; it was only in ENT that they clearly established that females undergo Pon Farr. I remember I had a big debate with someone at Youtube over some Trek expanded universe "documentary" about Pon Farr (produced before ENT, I suppose) that described it as something that Vulcan males undergo; I argued that TSFS interpretation, which I dislike anyway, can be easily explained away as Saavik choosing not to talk about female Pon Farr to David Marcus (Vulcans don't really like talking about PF except when they really must), if reconciling it all in canon is that important.

If you can squint your eyes enough not to see any wrinkles in it, my pet theory to fit almost everything into one explanation is that Vulcan males undergo the 7 years cycle (TOS), while Vulcan females experience pon farr when triggered by contact with a male suffering the condition (VOY), or when exposed to intense stress or some other events (ENT). It helps that it doesn't involve the males and females having to adjust their "timing".

 

[Sector 7]

Vulcans mate normally any time they want to. However, every seven years you do the ritual, the ceremony, the whole thing. The biological urge. You must, but any other time is any other emotion - humanoid emotion - when you're in love. When you want to, you know, when the urge is there, you do it. This every-seven-years business was taken too literally by too many people who don't stop and understand. We didn't mean it only every seven years. I mean, every seven years would be a little bad, and it would not explain the Vulcans of many different ages which are not seven years apart.

Once D.C. Fontana has spoken, the subject is concluded.

Vulcan was shown to be a very matriarchal society, so the thought that only males have Pon Farr seems logical. A Vulcan couple are bonded on many levels so it is also logical that a female's psychic bond would mean that his Pon Farr could trigger her response to him.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I agree, having sex only once in seven years makes zero sense, but here's a thing that bugs me:

From ENT: "Fusion"

KOV: We were just discussing Vulcan mating rituals. Most of my people are extremely uncomfortable talking about such things. So many inhibitions. Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.

TUCKER: Seven years?

REED: Frightening.

KOV: Over the past few years, we've been developing methods to accelerate the mating cycle.

So according to this, Vulcan males' sex drive is dormant in between two pon farr's, and women don't go trough pon farr at all?

Personally, I just dismiss this whole conversation as a goof, like the one in DS9 when Bashir said that Eugenics wars happened in 22. century (or whenever)...

It was a pretty young Vulcan, IIRC. Maybe Vulcans take longer to mature, and he hadn't had his first pon farr yet. I doubt if you asked a ten year old human child about our reproduction you would get a very good answer.

But a little later, ENT itself showed that Vulcan women do go through Pon Farr.

Does this contradict canon?

No, just continuity.

Vulcan was shown to be a very matriarchal society, so the thought that only males have Pon Farr seems logical. A Vulcan couple are bonded on many levels so it is also logical that a female's psychic bond would mean that his Pon Farr could trigger her response to him.

It was shown to have females in some leadership positions. Which is not the same as a matriarchy.

 

[The Wormhole]

Vulcans can have sex whenever they want. But they choose not to since sex disgusts or disturbs them. However, repressing their sexual drive takes its toll and and after seven years of repression they must release by engaging in sex, thus the pon farr. I thought this was made perfectly clear in Amok Time?

 

[T'Girl]

Pon farr is an irresistible urge

During the movie "The Search For Spock" most folks think it is pretty obvious that Spock and Saavik had sex, and while young Spock was supposely experiencing pon farr, Saavik apparently wasn't. So unless she "caught" pon farr from Spock via mental contact, like Torres did in Voyager, that would seem to indicate that she (all Vulcan females) can and will have sex at any time.

I believe that Vulcan female do experience pon farr, in fact I hold that Spock in "Amok Time" didn't begin to enter pon farr until T'Pring also started pon farr on Vulcan. They were telepathically linked as children, T'Pring's first pon farr would be connected to her cycle, when she was old enough and ready to concieve, she would start, the mental link would trigger Spock to start. In ancient times Spock would walk across the village or come in from the fields.

Just now had a thought. When young Spock went into pon farr on the Genesis Planet, what did old T'Pring (on Vulcan) feel?

.

 

[Mach5]

Just now had a thought. When young Spock went into pon farr on the Genesis Planet, what did old T'Pring (on Vulcan) feel?

Nothing, because when she bonded with Stonn, her link with Spock broke.

Vulcans can have sex whenever they want. But they choose not to since sex disgusts or disturbs them. However, repressing their sexual drive takes its toll and and after seven years of repression they must release by engaging in sex, thus the pon farr.

An insanely illogical practice for a logic-worshiping culture...

 

[iguana_tonante]

Wow, nice to see my pet theory cited here! Thank you, DevilEyes.

Vulcans can have sex whenever they want. But they choose not to since sex disgusts or disturbs them. However, repressing their sexual drive takes its toll and and after seven years of repression they must release by engaging in sex, thus the pon farr.

An insanely illogical practice for a logic-worshiping culture...

I agree. If I recall correctly, it was McCoy that proposed that idea, not Spock or another Vulcan. It could be wild guessing on his part.

 

[Myasishchev]

This poll is very binary. It doesn't include plausible option 3: it's a fertility (rather, virility) cycle.

Taking human women as an example, they can have sex pretty much whenever they want to (whether they will or not is an altogether different question, and one I am unqualified to answer ). But whether that sex will result in procreation or not is dependent on a number of factors, one of the more obvious being whether she's fertile

Presumably Vulcan women have a menstrual cycle or oestress cycle similar to terrestrial mammals, and this generally isn't questioned. Although it's never actually stated that they produce the egg. As far as we know, they might have a switched-off system where the male produces a single gamete, or a couple of gametes, and the female produces a sea of sperm-like gametes to receive it. That strikes me as a plausible system. I don't think this is the case here, but it seems workable. But I digress.

I suppose that pon farr is a virility cycle, and the male only becomes virile during it. Otherwise, it's rather bloody pointless, isn't it? To undergo a violent, raging heat when they're perfectly capable of spawning a billion children without it? Given how unbelievably stupid and antisocial they get--given that they freaking die if they don't find a mate--it has all the hallmarks of a very strong selective disadvantage. It's preposterous to believe that their forebears would accept such a monstrous disadvantage unless it had a counteradvantage.

If it's a virility cycle, then the antisocial, violent, rapist plak tow phase makes sense. If the Vulcan becomes virile only once every seven years, it becomes crucial to screw then. Indeed, in pre-civilizational terms, it becomes crucial to screw and get it right early. I don't suppose early Vulcan lifespans were much longer than early humans', and the majority would only get two or three shots at offspring before dying of disease, predators, starvation, dehydration, exposure, etc.

Now it does seem kind of silly at first blush that a species would evolve with the huge disadvantage of having so little control over its reproductive cycle, and being able to breed so slowly. Even at second blush it seems nonsensical. But, if Vulcan is indeed a desert planet, and if food and water are hard to come by, it may make some sense.

Limiting offspring isn't necessarily bad if by doing so you also increase resources devoted to each one. That's called a K-strategy, relying on individual fitness of offspring rather than collective fitness like a rabbit--what on the individual level basically comes down to luck. Vulcans are even stronger K-strategists than humans.

Additionally, it's easy to underestimate the amount of resources that go into human sperm production. I'd love to see the actual numbers on how many of the calories I consume goes into reinforcing my gametes. I bet it's not an overwhelming amount--maybe 50 a day?--but a considerable one if you live in a barren wasteland with higher gravity to fight against and hungry sehlats you have to run away from and/or fight. Likewise, on a particularly dry planet, seminal fluid production would be struggle.

So, in sum, Vulcans could do porn, but facials are out of the question.

 

[FordSVT]

Vulcans can have sex whenever they want. But they choose not to since sex disgusts or disturbs them.

It would not be logical to be "disgusted" or "disturbed" by a natural body function precipitated by natural evolution.

If Vulcans typically abstain from sex with their partners (and we have no evidence they do), it's for logical reasons that probably have more to do with dampening selfish emotions and self-control than not liking it.

I'd also point out that different Vulcans have different levels of emotional control. Maybe some abstain and some have regular sex in order to bond with their mates. I have no idea, they're a rather closed society when it comes to sex. Spock was actually ashamed (entirely illogical ) to let Kirk know what was happening to him, and once again Vulcan as a culture is shown to be more emotional and prideful than they willingly admit.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Excellent post, Myasishchev!

And hilarious ending!

 

[KimMH]

maybe it's a Vulcan hoax they perp onto the galaxy to get chicks. "I only get to have sex every seven years - it's kind of rare - don't you want to be one of the few non-Vulcans to experience it ?"