Perhaps a simple question...

[SilentP]

...but maybe not.

Maybe I don't remember the exact details of the episodes that would answer my question, but does anyone know when General Martok was replaced by a Changeling?

I only wonder because it may of been part of how the Klingon High Council was 'convinced' that the new Cardassian civilian government was instigated by the Dominion, not that there weren't sentiments within the Empire that would have jumped at any opportunity to wage war.

 

[Eyes]

I think when we found Martok in 'In Purgatory's Shadow', he said about being there for 2 years, which would mean that the Martok we first met in 'Way of the Warrior' was a changeling, which makes sense really.

 

[SilentP]

Righto, so the timing is what rules him out as being the one asking Sisko for the Federation's help in attacking the Cardassians the first time round.

If it's true, it shows that Joe Sisko's idea on how a Changeling could fake it's way through a blood screening test (take someone's blood and store it inside them to use in a test) works, at least to some degree, since the 'Martok' who met with Kira and Sisko in 'Way of the Warrior', cut himself with his knife and bled before Sisko and Kira repeated the same thing, to 'prove' they were who they said they were.

 

[Timo]

In fact, since a Founder deliberately suggested this technique as a means of identifying Founders, we can probably rest assured that the technique has no hope of working.

We don't actually have any proof that parts separated from an adult Changeling would revert to goo. Perhaps that's what happens only when an infant Changeling like Odo is separated from its parts?

Of course, we can always indulge in conspiracy theories. The Martok who first appeared in "Way of the Warrior" was a devout and aggressive enemy of the Dominion. The Martok liberated in "By Inferno's Light" was an enemy of the Klingon Empire: a traitor who for the longest time refused to fire at Dominion ships, citing cowardice as his excuse; who refused to attack the targets designated for him later in the war, up to and including a key offensive planned by Gowron himself; who, when challenged on his failure to perform that offensive, sent Worf to assassinate Gowron and thus significantly weaken the Alpha alliance in a time of crisis. Isn't it actually more likely that at most the original Martok was the real deal, and the one found on that prison camp was a mere impostor - a second impostor, one who, unlike the one that was killed in "Apocalypse Rising", managed to hold on to his assumed persona through the whole war?

The same argument could go for the Garak that was liberated from the same prison. After his release, he similarly made up excuses for his failures to assist the Alpha cause ("Favor the Bold", "Afterimage"), while proceeding to kill key Alpha personnel left and right ("Empok Nor", "In the Pale Moonlight")...

Even the Bashir released from the prison is suspect. After all, it was he who undermined the Alpha side's most effective attack plan, the genocidal bioattack attributed to Section 31.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[snakespeare]

To SilentP: Exactly. We watched that (Way of the Warrior) episode the other night and the minute Martok showed up we both said "changeling!" Then when he demanded blood, my wife said, "Better get the doctor to verify that DNA. You know what Joseph Sisko would say." Of course, the TV never does what you tell it.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

In fact, since a Founder deliberately suggested this technique as a means of identifying Founders, we can probably rest assured that the technique has no hope of working.

We don't actually have any proof that parts separated from an adult Changeling would revert to goo. Perhaps that's what happens only when an infant Changeling like Odo is separated from its parts?

Of course, we can always indulge in conspiracy theories. The Martok who first appeared in "Way of the Warrior" was a devout and aggressive enemy of the Dominion. The Martok liberated in "By Inferno's Light" was an enemy of the Klingon Empire: a traitor who for the longest time refused to fire at Dominion ships, citing cowardice as his excuse; who refused to attack the targets designated for him later in the war, up to and including a key offensive planned by Gowron himself; who, when challenged on his failure to perform that offensive, sent Worf to assassinate Gowron and thus significantly weaken the Alpha alliance in a time of crisis. Isn't it actually more likely that at most the original Martok was the real deal, and the one found on that prison camp was a mere impostor - a second impostor, one who, unlike the one that was killed in "Apocalypse Rising", managed to hold on to his assumed persona through the whole war?

The same argument could go for the Garak that was liberated from the same prison. After his release, he similarly made up excuses for his failures to assist the Alpha cause ("Favor the Bold", "Afterimage"), while proceeding to kill key Alpha personnel left and right ("Empok Nor", "In the Pale Moonlight")...

Even the Bashir released from the prison is suspect. After all, it was he who undermined the Alpha side's most effective attack plan, the genocidal bioattack attributed to Section 31.

Timo Saloniemi

While I really do like the conspiracy theory you're conjuring here, and I absolutely would like to see how the alpha quadrant would have ended up if this were all true (it is reminiscent of the fake return to reality in Steven King's 1408). However, I'm not quite sure that Garak kills any "key" Alpha Quadrant personnel in Empok Nor, and his assassination of Senator Vreenak with fabricated evidence to implicate the Dominion is enough evidence that he, in particular, was working against the Dominion, and probably enough evidence to assume that he is the real Garak.

As for Bashir and Section 31, the resultant cure for the disease was a large part of Odo's bargain with the female Changeling, and that was eventually the event that led to the Dominion's surrender. Again, I think that's enough evidence to assure us he's the real Bashir and not working for the Dominion.

As for Martok, the evidence is arguably less conclusive: the original appearance of Martok saw him pushing for the Federation's help in destroying Cardassia - this would have been one less race for the Dominion to worry about (they were unaware at the time that the Cardassians would be willing to join them). In addition, Martok's encouragement for Worf to challenge Gowron meant that tactically unsound decisions that were wasting Klingon resources were no longer being made. That's about the best I can do.

I know you're not saying that they are all Changelings, but I thought it would be interesting to see what evidence there was to disprove those theories. However, I really would like to see what the universe would have ended up like if they were all true! This calls for a fanfic!!!

 

[Photon]

Righto, so the timing is what rules him out as being the one asking Sisko for the Federation's help in attacking the Cardassians the first time round.

If it's true, it shows that Joe Sisko's idea on how a Changeling could fake it's way through a blood screening test (take someone's blood and store it inside them to use in a test) works, at least to some degree, since the 'Martok' who met with Kira and Sisko in 'Way of the Warrior', cut himself with his knife and bled before Sisko and Kira repeated the same thing, to 'prove' they were who they said they were.

During The Adversary, Changling Bashir faked a blood sample and supplanted Eddington's with Changling goo.
"These Founders, Elim, they're very good. Next time... we should be more careful."
- Enabran Tain

 

[Myasishchev]

In fact, since a Founder deliberately suggested this technique as a means of identifying Founders, we can probably rest assured that the technique has no hope of working.

We don't actually have any proof that parts separated from an adult Changeling would revert to goo. Perhaps that's what happens only when an infant Changeling like Odo is separated from its parts?

Of course, we can always indulge in conspiracy theories. The Martok who first appeared in "Way of the Warrior" was a devout and aggressive enemy of the Dominion. The Martok liberated in "By Inferno's Light" was an enemy of the Klingon Empire: a traitor who for the longest time refused to fire at Dominion ships, citing cowardice as his excuse; who refused to attack the targets designated for him later in the war, up to and including a key offensive planned by Gowron himself; who, when challenged on his failure to perform that offensive, sent Worf to assassinate Gowron and thus significantly weaken the Alpha alliance in a time of crisis. Isn't it actually more likely that at most the original Martok was the real deal, and the one found on that prison camp was a mere impostor - a second impostor, one who, unlike the one that was killed in "Apocalypse Rising", managed to hold on to his assumed persona through the whole war?

The same argument could go for the Garak that was liberated from the same prison. After his release, he similarly made up excuses for his failures to assist the Alpha cause ("Favor the Bold", "Afterimage"), while proceeding to kill key Alpha personnel left and right ("Empok Nor", "In the Pale Moonlight")...

Even the Bashir released from the prison is suspect. After all, it was he who undermined the Alpha side's most effective attack plan, the genocidal bioattack attributed to Section 31.

Timo Saloniemi

Though Changeling-Martok was also really gung ho about going to war with the Federation, even in Way of the Warrior. "We can still win!", iirc.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

Followed by something in Klingon, which sounded very similar to the noises made when a humanoid chokes to death...