Sidney is in Canada, Sydney is in Australia. Sidney is nice, but a lot of old people and a crappy highway to get out there (people drive like idiots = accidents). I'm assuming fewer old people in Sydney.
Becoming an Expatriate or Retiring Away
- Thread starter John Picard
- Start date
Sidney is in Canada, Sydney is in Australia. Sidney is nice, but a lot of old people and a crappy highway to get out there (people drive like idiots = accidents). I'm assuming fewer old people in Sydney.
More and more I run into people, like me, that just don't want to stay in the US or simply don't see themselves retiring and staying here. I hate to blame the media, but I think the mass 24/7 onsalught of everything little thing and 90% of it bad is what a lot of people are hoping to escape.
Like I told my wife, if we can't immigrate to Canada now, maybe we can when we're older and a bit better of financially (next to health, finances and support are the big ones that can screw you on immigration in both the US and Canada).
Like I told my wife, if we can't immigrate to Canada now, maybe we can when we're older and a bit better of financially (next to health, finances and support are the big ones that can screw you on immigration in both the US and Canada).
First of all, how much have you actually traveled outside the U.S.?
If you haven't traveled very much ON YOUR OWN (going to ClubMed, or traveling in a tour group full of Americans, or going to Europe with your folks when you were 14, or living on an American military base doesn't count) I would start there.
I myself have traveled extensively in Europe (and since you mentioned Italy specifically, I've traveled through Italy independently 3 times and love it), Central Asia and Asia, and was an expat living in Moscow, Russia for a year. And while I positively ADORE traveling and living abroad, it is NOT as romantic as you might think. You have to be prepared to learn the language, eat the food choices available (which may mean eating in places that would never in a million years pass our restaurant health inspections), and deal with a myriad of inconveniences, by American standards.
Remember, you will not be staying in a 5 star hotel when you go to LIVE in a place. Are you prepared, for example, to shop in several different stores for meat, dairy, and produce, and carry all of this back to your flat via metro, walking up and down stairs? Are you prepared to give up brand named American products and do more cooking from scratch? Are you prepared to walk to a laundrymat or make room for a washer/dryer in a flat that is already half the size, by American standards?
The rest of the world does NOT live as lavishly or as comfortably or as 'super-sized in every way' as we do. They live in smaller houses and flats, drive smaller cars, and have alot less choices on cable. And they are not nearly as into rabid consumerism as we are - they simply do not have the money. And you really have to be prepared for all this...because if you aren't, the shock will be tremendous.
Additionally, if you think that by moving out of the US, you will get away from government interference or presence in your life, you are sadly mistaken. In some countries, there is a tremendous amount of red tape that involves schlepping from office to office for DAYS, for all sorts of things that are a phone call away for us. And if you are planning to live in most any part of Europe, you are looking at socialized medicine - not a problem for ME...but it could certainly be a problem for someone who claims to want to get AWAY from 'the government fixing everything'. Government waste and corruption in many countries is standard operating procedure - accepted practice. And if you are looking to get away from our crazy politics...then I would certainly NOT recommend going to pretty much any of the counties you listed. I can't imagine that Central American politics are exactly stable...and Italian politics, while extremely entertaining, might not be everything you'd hoped for:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31082171/
And as long as we are on the topic of Italy, if you choose Tuscany you have to be prepared for the Italian way of life - something I ADORE, but which many Americans cannot deal with on a long-term basis. Italians are about the WONDROUS JOURNEY OF LIFE - not about WINNING THE GAME, so if you are an American that is into winning the game, you will have a difficult time understanding the mindset. In Italy - if you expect for things to arrive on time, open on time, keep regular hours, or anything like that, you can forget it. Mass transit can be shut down on a dime...with no explanation offered by anyone - and no point in asking when it will come back up - you will only get a shrug and a big smile. Italy is a wonderful country full of the most friendly people (not to mention the best food) on earth...but they do not, as a rule, take life nearly as seriously as we do. They are never on time, drive like crazy people and park anywhere they like (and I do mean ANYWHERE), and many laws are viewed more as 'helpful suggestions' by the population. "Good service" in an Italian eating establishment means the exact opposite of what it means here - Italian waiters will ASSUME that you are in no hurry at all and have all afternoon to laze through your lunch - therefore, they will stretch out the service for what can feel like an eternity to us. Eating, to an Italian, is a joy to be savored for as long as possible - not a bodily function that needs to be rushed through so that you can Get Things Done. Italy is a loud, disorganized and wonderfully happy country - to many Americans, it would feel like a country where the party never stops. But you have to be a person who can RELAX and find happiness in utter and complete chaos. It is my favorite country on earth, by a long margin...but it is not for every American.
Finally, I have no idea what you mean by a 'comfortable lifestyle'. But if you expect to find "America....only without that many Americans" anywhere else in the world, you are in for a huge surprise. And going somewhere with that attitude - of expecting all of our comforts and conveniences - will only make you miserable and get you labeled one of those 'ugly Americans' by the locals.
My advise - which I know you won't take since you have never EVER listened to a word I have said on these boards (even about my own profession, which you know nothing about) is to travel - and travel A LOT. Travel alone and travel like the locals would travel - not like a spoiled American would travel. If you can, take a few months and LIVE someplace and live like the locals live. Walk up 4 flights of stairs while loaded down with groceries that you schlepped through the metro, and see if it's something you wouldn't mind doing. Sample life without all of our conveniences and instant everything. In short, live overseas long enough to really know what you are in for...and if you can deal with your life being VERY different, in terms of creature comforts, than it is here.
Traveling and living as much as you are able like the locals, is the best way of determining if living abroad is for you. KNOW what you are getting into.
But if all of this is coming to your mind, simply because you are sick of American politics and want to escape (which is what it sounds like to me) to a place that is an American Mini-Me without our politics...then living abroad will NOT make you any happier. In fact, for someone like that, it would be an out of the frying pan and into the fire move.
If you haven't traveled very much ON YOUR OWN (going to ClubMed, or traveling in a tour group full of Americans, or going to Europe with your folks when you were 14, or living on an American military base doesn't count) I would start there.
I myself have traveled extensively in Europe (and since you mentioned Italy specifically, I've traveled through Italy independently 3 times and love it), Central Asia and Asia, and was an expat living in Moscow, Russia for a year. And while I positively ADORE traveling and living abroad, it is NOT as romantic as you might think. You have to be prepared to learn the language, eat the food choices available (which may mean eating in places that would never in a million years pass our restaurant health inspections), and deal with a myriad of inconveniences, by American standards.
Remember, you will not be staying in a 5 star hotel when you go to LIVE in a place. Are you prepared, for example, to shop in several different stores for meat, dairy, and produce, and carry all of this back to your flat via metro, walking up and down stairs? Are you prepared to give up brand named American products and do more cooking from scratch? Are you prepared to walk to a laundrymat or make room for a washer/dryer in a flat that is already half the size, by American standards?
The rest of the world does NOT live as lavishly or as comfortably or as 'super-sized in every way' as we do. They live in smaller houses and flats, drive smaller cars, and have alot less choices on cable. And they are not nearly as into rabid consumerism as we are - they simply do not have the money. And you really have to be prepared for all this...because if you aren't, the shock will be tremendous.
Additionally, if you think that by moving out of the US, you will get away from government interference or presence in your life, you are sadly mistaken. In some countries, there is a tremendous amount of red tape that involves schlepping from office to office for DAYS, for all sorts of things that are a phone call away for us. And if you are planning to live in most any part of Europe, you are looking at socialized medicine - not a problem for ME...but it could certainly be a problem for someone who claims to want to get AWAY from 'the government fixing everything'. Government waste and corruption in many countries is standard operating procedure - accepted practice. And if you are looking to get away from our crazy politics...then I would certainly NOT recommend going to pretty much any of the counties you listed. I can't imagine that Central American politics are exactly stable...and Italian politics, while extremely entertaining, might not be everything you'd hoped for:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31082171/
And as long as we are on the topic of Italy, if you choose Tuscany you have to be prepared for the Italian way of life - something I ADORE, but which many Americans cannot deal with on a long-term basis. Italians are about the WONDROUS JOURNEY OF LIFE - not about WINNING THE GAME, so if you are an American that is into winning the game, you will have a difficult time understanding the mindset. In Italy - if you expect for things to arrive on time, open on time, keep regular hours, or anything like that, you can forget it. Mass transit can be shut down on a dime...with no explanation offered by anyone - and no point in asking when it will come back up - you will only get a shrug and a big smile. Italy is a wonderful country full of the most friendly people (not to mention the best food) on earth...but they do not, as a rule, take life nearly as seriously as we do. They are never on time, drive like crazy people and park anywhere they like (and I do mean ANYWHERE), and many laws are viewed more as 'helpful suggestions' by the population. "Good service" in an Italian eating establishment means the exact opposite of what it means here - Italian waiters will ASSUME that you are in no hurry at all and have all afternoon to laze through your lunch - therefore, they will stretch out the service for what can feel like an eternity to us. Eating, to an Italian, is a joy to be savored for as long as possible - not a bodily function that needs to be rushed through so that you can Get Things Done. Italy is a loud, disorganized and wonderfully happy country - to many Americans, it would feel like a country where the party never stops. But you have to be a person who can RELAX and find happiness in utter and complete chaos. It is my favorite country on earth, by a long margin...but it is not for every American.
Finally, I have no idea what you mean by a 'comfortable lifestyle'. But if you expect to find "America....only without that many Americans" anywhere else in the world, you are in for a huge surprise. And going somewhere with that attitude - of expecting all of our comforts and conveniences - will only make you miserable and get you labeled one of those 'ugly Americans' by the locals.
My advise - which I know you won't take since you have never EVER listened to a word I have said on these boards (even about my own profession, which you know nothing about) is to travel - and travel A LOT. Travel alone and travel like the locals would travel - not like a spoiled American would travel. If you can, take a few months and LIVE someplace and live like the locals live. Walk up 4 flights of stairs while loaded down with groceries that you schlepped through the metro, and see if it's something you wouldn't mind doing. Sample life without all of our conveniences and instant everything. In short, live overseas long enough to really know what you are in for...and if you can deal with your life being VERY different, in terms of creature comforts, than it is here.
Traveling and living as much as you are able like the locals, is the best way of determining if living abroad is for you. KNOW what you are getting into.
But if all of this is coming to your mind, simply because you are sick of American politics and want to escape (which is what it sounds like to me) to a place that is an American Mini-Me without our politics...then living abroad will NOT make you any happier. In fact, for someone like that, it would be an out of the frying pan and into the fire move.
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(EDIT - PKTREKGIRL posted while I was writing my reply. She hit it perfectly and you would be smart to listen to what she has said. Now my shorting response...)
I have 2-acres of property on Roatan in the Bay Islands of Honduras. It was originally bought for retirement but the island is heading towards Cozumel type development. That is not what I want and so my plans are changing. The land was purchased at a very good price in the 90's and has gone up dramatically in value. I expect it to go even further as island property tends to appreciate. So now I'm looking at it more as tax-free investment property. I will then use the proceeds to retire elsewhere, possibly the Honduran mainland (my wife's family is from Honduras).
There are many things to consider before heading overseas. Do your homework, visit places, talk to other ex-pats and be ready for some surprises. Don't expect the locals to embrace you; expect many expats to be alcoholic, bitter folks who think they are owed everything. Don't get me wrong, there are some great folks living abroad but generally it's a strange group.
Now, try thinking outside the box a bit...
Your comfortable on a boat, may I suggest Cruising? Get a 30-40 sailboat and you have the entire Caribbean at you disposal. I know several people who have that lifestyle. They pull into a bay, anchor and stay a few days, weeks or months. They pull anchor and move on whenever they feel like it. They have cruised up and down the eastern seaboard of the USA, gone down to the Bahamas, Turks and Virgin Islands. Head across the northern shore of South America and up the isthmus to the gulf states. but it is all up to you.
Boat life is not the life I want but I can see the appeal. The folks I know estimate their annual living expenses at $25k-$35k a year, much depending on the condition of their boat. A crappy boat will cost you more in upkeep.
I have 2-acres of property on Roatan in the Bay Islands of Honduras. It was originally bought for retirement but the island is heading towards Cozumel type development. That is not what I want and so my plans are changing. The land was purchased at a very good price in the 90's and has gone up dramatically in value. I expect it to go even further as island property tends to appreciate. So now I'm looking at it more as tax-free investment property. I will then use the proceeds to retire elsewhere, possibly the Honduran mainland (my wife's family is from Honduras).
There are many things to consider before heading overseas. Do your homework, visit places, talk to other ex-pats and be ready for some surprises. Don't expect the locals to embrace you; expect many expats to be alcoholic, bitter folks who think they are owed everything. Don't get me wrong, there are some great folks living abroad but generally it's a strange group.
Now, try thinking outside the box a bit...
Your comfortable on a boat, may I suggest Cruising? Get a 30-40 sailboat and you have the entire Caribbean at you disposal. I know several people who have that lifestyle. They pull into a bay, anchor and stay a few days, weeks or months. They pull anchor and move on whenever they feel like it. They have cruised up and down the eastern seaboard of the USA, gone down to the Bahamas, Turks and Virgin Islands. Head across the northern shore of South America and up the isthmus to the gulf states. but it is all up to you.
Boat life is not the life I want but I can see the appeal. The folks I know estimate their annual living expenses at $25k-$35k a year, much depending on the condition of their boat. A crappy boat will cost you more in upkeep.
The fact that there are anti-American ideologies at work in the US means that I would never consider leaving; I'll be here to defend American values till the day I die.
Although the Azores have a certain appeal for me; but that's more Romantic than anything else. And who wouldn't like the idea of a tropical island with topless women in grass skirts serving Twisted Tea on demand? Maybe I'll retire to Puerto Rico and have the best of both worlds.
This is an interesting point.
I think it depends on the country a little bit as to exactly how the expats in any particular place qualify as a 'strange group'. But I do think your point is a valid one.
In some places, they are definitely a bit 'off'.
The most glaring example of the expat population being a bit 'off' is Vietnam. I stumbled into a Saigon cafe that turned out to be an American expat hangout....and yeah - it was pretty surreal: mostly a bunch of guys in their late 50's and 60's (this was in 2003) who had fought in the Vietnam War...and who, as best I could determine, had never left that country mentally. Which is no doubt why they chose to go back there physically.
It struck me as kinda tragic, really...but from my conversations with a couple of them, they seemed to be pretty ensconced in that country...so I guess they are making the best kind of lemonade they are able out of their pile of lemons war experience.
I would guess that in Mexico and Central America you have a whole different lot. I get the impression that there is a certain group down there who keep 'bucking reality' and are positively determined to make those places into Mini-Me Americas through unreasonable expectations leading to unreasonable demands.
Yeah. Well, good luck with that!
They are exactly the sort of people I was talking about when I mentioned the locals thinking of them as 'ugly Americans'.
Sometimes when I travel and see Americans doing shit like this, I'm almost embarrassed to be from the same country.
I've always liked Sri Lanka. Great weather, nice people, decent cricket team. I mean, if it's good enough for Arthur C. Clarke... 
I'm going to jump on the lets retire somewhere tropical bandwagon. I am thoroughly sick of the British stiff upper lip.
Whenever I go away though, within a couple of weeks, I'm home-sick. Love hate relationship - the best kind.
Whenever I go away though, within a couple of weeks, I'm home-sick. Love hate relationship - the best kind.
A long time ago, I had hoped I could live long enough to retire to a moon colony and eventually be buried there. Oh well...
Don't give up yet! At least you have qualifications that could get you to a moon colony when it starts. I suppose I could open a tea shop - do you think they'd want one of those?
This.
And those things that John Picard hates so much about America, are hardly unique *to* America. (Conversely, there are certain things he's looking for, like decent mass transit, which can be found in certain American cities right now.)
There's never a bad time or place for tea.
Besides, they'll need something to wash down the moon cheese. [You're crackers, m'Lord - someone]
I'll bring up stocks of Jacob's Cream Crackers!
I wouldn't want to live elsewhere, but I wouldn't mind a holiday home on some island somewhere warm, like the Caribbean, the Maldives or Mauritius (which is where I'll be well on my way to, this time tomorrow...
). I'd miss the convenience/immediacy of countries like the USA/UK if I had to live elsewhere full time though. And remember that you'd still be a US citizen, so you won't really escape the IRS, and by extension, the US government interfering in your life.
Still, if you fancied a change, at least for a while, those would be the sort of places I'd go. I wouldn't pick anywhere around the Mediterranean to live - great for holidays, but I'm guessing a pain to live in because of the inherent disorganisation embedded in the bureaucratic systems of those countries.
I like the idea above about cruising around the Caribbean, though it wouldn't be my personal cup to tea to live on a boat.
Imitating Sir Arthur is never a bad thing.I've always liked Sri Lanka. Great weather, nice people, decent cricket team. I mean, if it's good enough for Arthur C. Clarke...
PKTrekGirl -- 
Wow, did you ever go into detail....I LOVE IT! I will address your points and questions as best I can.
As I stated earlier, I've been to Canada (just a couple of quick trips for a few days), Kenya, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, Australia, and the Philippines. I forgot to mention earlier that I'd been to Korea. All, save for Canada, were courtesy of the US Navy for port visits.
While in Japan, a friend and I found a great little restaurant where the man at the counter spoke very good English. We had a wonderful time and learned, very quickly, how to eat with chopsticks!
Don't know what you're referring to, because you've said much that I've agreed with, but then again, if we always listened to everyone else then life would be boring
Overall, I've been more of the restless spirit. I grew up with parents who lived through the Depression and were packrats. You have no idea what it is like to have lived in a two-story, Southern Colonial, with a full basement, that was always packed with junk. Neither would ever get rid of anything and would constantly bring stuff home, hence my aversion to clutter and "large American living". I always wanted to travel and meet other people and see what the world has to offer, while my father would scoff at me and tell me that it isn't that special, and if I want to know about it then just read a book about it. That's why I joined the Navy. It gave me that taste of adventure and I had some terrific experiences. Maybe, rather than just flat out leaving, I would just go someplace for an extended period of time. Like I said, I'm not the typical American who wishes everyone cater to me. I'm the type who definitely practices, "When in Rome..."
Again, thank you. That was wonderful.
Wow, did you ever go into detail....I LOVE IT! I will address your points and questions as best I can.As I stated earlier, I've been to Canada (just a couple of quick trips for a few days), Kenya, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, Australia, and the Philippines. I forgot to mention earlier that I'd been to Korea. All, save for Canada, were courtesy of the US Navy for port visits.
Understood --and, I've eaten food from street carts in Asia as well as local "hole-in-the-wall" restaurants in Asia, meaning I pointed at something on the menu and prayed it wouldn't be looking back at me
While in Japan, a friend and I found a great little restaurant where the man at the counter spoke very good English. We had a wonderful time and learned, very quickly, how to eat with chopsticks!I pretty much live like that now. I rarely even buy food at the local large scale supermarket and instead buy my food at a natural food store. I don't care for much pre-made fare and do cook from scratch. I already use the local laundromat PLUS, I spent upward of 6 months at sea on a Nimitz Class Carrier. My rack was 6'x2' and it opened to a storage area 8" deep where everything I owned was stored. We also had one or two smaller lockers.
I currently live on 10 acres with a house that is 1450sq-ft. I am already looking to downsize into something like a bungalow. I cannot stand owning or living in such a large house or trying to maintain such a large parcel of land. My hobby has been older Volkswagens (pre-1970) and I love smaller, sporty cars. Again, I really would like to get away from owning a car, and yes, I've been in the smaller taxis overseas. I don't have cable, hell I don't have a digital TV. All of my viewing is done via Netflix.
Point well taken. I guess it's the fact that Americans cannot get it through their heads that the US Government is just as corrupt, from the local township up to the Federal Level, that every other country on the Earth is.
Earlier, a couple of users posted how they "cherish American values and will always defend them". As you stated, I see Americans as being full of themselves with this false sense of entitlement that they are superior to the rest of the world. Ever since the Internet made news reporting from multiple sources available I've become more and more aware of this entitlement. Back in the 90's, when Europeans were getting hit with higher gas (petrol prices) I would witness Americans commenting, "ha ha ha, Serves you right for being in backwards Europe. I'll enjoy my cheap gas and never give up my SUV, 4x4, etc". Then, when hit with rising fuel costs, they cry. Americans whine, snivel, and cry at the most minor inconveniences, and when they travel abroad, it's even more humorous. It is my belief that after WWII, Americans bestowed themselves as the nobility of the world and started to believe their own BS, hence their attitude of "I want...I want MORE...I have MORE than YOU..." To me, life is a journey, not a destination.
Duly noted, and again, I think it would be a marvelous experience. I equate the above with the attitude many friends of mine in the car hobby have regarding the car shows we attend. None of us gives a shit about trophies; it's all about the people, the fellowship, and the camaraderie. We laugh at people who decorate their spot with all of the trophies they've won, because it's all useless crap.
Comfortable means good people, adequate food/drink, and a roof over my head.
Don't know what you're referring to, because you've said much that I've agreed with, but then again, if we always listened to everyone else then life would be boring
Again, thank you for the insight and your perspective. That's exactly what I'm seeking.
Overall, I've been more of the restless spirit. I grew up with parents who lived through the Depression and were packrats. You have no idea what it is like to have lived in a two-story, Southern Colonial, with a full basement, that was always packed with junk. Neither would ever get rid of anything and would constantly bring stuff home, hence my aversion to clutter and "large American living". I always wanted to travel and meet other people and see what the world has to offer, while my father would scoff at me and tell me that it isn't that special, and if I want to know about it then just read a book about it. That's why I joined the Navy. It gave me that taste of adventure and I had some terrific experiences. Maybe, rather than just flat out leaving, I would just go someplace for an extended period of time. Like I said, I'm not the typical American who wishes everyone cater to me. I'm the type who definitely practices, "When in Rome..."
Again, thank you. That was wonderful.
Personally I would go to Mexico to retire.
There's a pretty decent sized expat population there. The people are friendly, and the dollar still goes a long way in most places. I speak Spanish relatively well. The vast majority of the country is safe, clean, and livable, despite stereotypes and the recent Drug Cartel violence.
Also, it's still close enough to home that I could visit fairly often.
There's a pretty decent sized expat population there. The people are friendly, and the dollar still goes a long way in most places. I speak Spanish relatively well. The vast majority of the country is safe, clean, and livable, despite stereotypes and the recent Drug Cartel violence.
Also, it's still close enough to home that I could visit fairly often.
Don't forget to check out the constitutions of each country you are deciding upon (assuming some even have one, or an equilivent), the human rights violations, whether American tend to get kidnapped living there, what kind of laws and freedoms you have, and of course the medical system.
I know a guy who is contemplating doing that. I doubt he'll follow through but he is thinking it over.
That's a no brainer.
Do some searching for information regarding American Expatriates who bought land in Mexico and then lost it, due to a court battle. Mexico is one place I would *not* consider.