If Abrams thinks he knows his audience he is mistaken

[Pauln6]

Lol - and Kirk is the only captain with any brains, Uhura is the only crewman who can operate a universal translator, Chekov is the only one who can use the transporter, and 95% of intelligent life is carbon-based humanoid. Welcome to Star Trek!

But we could have had T'Pol if T'Pau wasn't qualified, and in a global crisis, why wouldn't a world leader be at the fore? Sure, she might have been at a nudist camp on Risa but the point we're making is that there would have been simple ways to increase the female presence in the movie that don't stretch the imagination.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Lol - and Kirk is the only captain with any brains, Uhura is the only crewman who can operate a universal translator, Chekov is the only one who can use the transporter, and 95% of intelligent life is carbon-based humanoid. Welcome to Star Trek!

But we could have had T'Pol if T'Pau wasn't qualified, and in a global crisis, why wouldn't a world leader be at the fore? Sure, she might have been at a nudist camp on Risa but the point we're making is that there would have been simple ways to increase the female presence in the movie that don't stretch the imagination.

Well the scene in question is Spock's acceptance into The VSA. Which isn't a crisis. During the Vulcan destruction scenes the other Vulcans are lineless extras. Only Sarek speaks. Shoehorning T'Pau or T'Pol in would have been exposition heavy for a scene that require alot of running and jumping.

 

[Pauln6]

Well the scene in question is Spock's acceptance into The VSA. Which isn't a crisis. During the Vulcan destruction scenes the other Vulcans are lineless extras. Only Sarek speaks. Shoehorning T'Pau or T'Pol in would have been exposition heavy for a scene that require alot of running and jumping.

Give the woman the lines and when Spock answers her, he calls her T'Pol. T'Pau comes to the bridge to demand an explanation of Spock during the crisis. They escort her off the bridge. It's not all that exposition heavy.

It's this astounding lack of imagination that leads Trek writers only to write in women who also function as the wives, girlfriends, or mothers of the male characters.

Of all the characters in the movie with speaking parts I can only think of an alien midwife/doctor and a transporter chief. Compare that to Robau, Pike, Nero, Nero's men, Olsen, the annoying Vulcans, the rowdy cadets etc - there's a definite gender imbalance.

Other shows like Battlestar Galactica manage these issues far more effectively. It can be done with very little effort.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well the scene in question is Spock's acceptance into The VSA. Which isn't a crisis. During the Vulcan destruction scenes the other Vulcans are lineless extras. Only Sarek speaks. Shoehorning T'Pau or T'Pol in would have been exposition heavy for a scene that require alot of running and jumping.

Give the woman the lines and when Spock answers her, he calls her T'Pol. T'Pau comes to the bridge to demand an explanation of Spock during the crisis. They escort her off the bridge. It's not all that exposition heavy.

Time is crucial in movies. That scene would have to replace one that might be more pivitol to the plot.

It's this astounding lack of imagination that leads Trek writers only to write in women who also function as the wives, girlfriends, or mothers of the male characters.

Such was TV in the sixties. Star Trek was a male heavy cast. Thats what the makers of the new film had to use in this film. Perhaps the next one they will have more freedom since the main characters have been introduced.

Of all the characters in the movie with speaking parts I can only think of an alien midwife/doctor and a transporter chief. Compare that to Robau, Pike, Nero, Nero's men, Olsen, the annoying Vulcans, the rowdy cadets etc - there's a definite gender imbalance.

Galia spoke a few times. And there was a woman at a communications station that had some lines. The officer on the shuttle that McCoy is fighting with has some lines. I've a feeling if Olsen or Robau had been women, folks would be complain that they killed them because they were women. And if you're counting Pike and Nero then you have to count Winona and Amanda.

Other shows like Battlestar Galactica manage these issues far more effectively. It can be done with very little effort.

BSG had years. This movie had two hours. TV trek has had Uhura, Rand, Chapel, Janeway, Seven, T'Pol, Kira, Sato, two Daxs, Crusher and Troi. None of whom were just "Girlfriends, wives or mothers" only.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Which only goes to prove the old point that Star Trek works much better on tv than in the movies.

 

[Sci]

I think it's fair to say that ST09's cast lineup is dominated by males, but I think it's important to remember, too, that that is a function of the series it is based upon: TOS was a series about male characters, with female characters only ever existing on the periphery. As a function of ST09 being an adaptation of TOS, it is primarily about male characters -- but even ST09 goes a lot further in making its sole female character, Uhura, an important and interesting character than TOS ever did. Uhura was practically the third main character after Kirk and Spock (and her role in the story was not just as Spock's love interest), and that's not nothing.

 

[RobertScorpio]

These kinds of threads amaze me...

HE DOESN'T CARE IF TREK FANS LIKE HIS MOVIES OR NOT...comprende? What he DOES care about is whether or not they make money and attract young hip fans like my daughter and others like her WHILE retaining most of TREK's fanbase....its really that simple...

Rob

 

[Pauln6]

Time is crucial in movies. That scene would have to replace one that might be more pivitol to the plot.

Yes, this is the principle reason more of the established women didn't appear. JJ was quoted as saying that he didn't want to bung too many characters in for the hell of it if all he could give them was cameos. It doesn't really justify a lack of extras with speaking parts, female Romulans, female admirals, female Vulcan scientists etc.

Galia spoke a few times. And there was a woman at a communications station that had some lines. The officer on the shuttle that McCoy is fighting with has some lines. I've a feeling if Olsen or Robau had been women, folks would be complain that they killed them because they were women. And if you're counting Pike and Nero then you have to count Winona and Amanda.

Gaila was a girlfriend, I excluded Winona, Amanda, George, and step dad as they are familial characters. I think you are right that Olsen might have been a man because of a reluctance to kill a woman but hey, that's sexist! What's more it's also daft. Thousands of principle heroines have been killed throughout movie history, most often so we can see the effect their death has on a male character (lover, relative, psycho, cop etc). A reluctance to kill a female extra seems silly.

BSG had years. This movie had two hours. TV trek has had Uhura, Rand, Chapel, Janeway, Seven, T'Pol, Kira, Sato, two Daxs, Crusher and Troi. None of whom were just "Girlfriends, wives or mothers" only.

Well, take the first episode of the mini series of BSG in isolation. They still do much better. Modern Tv Trek has slightly more high profile females than TOS and in slightly elevated positions of authority but it has always stuck with a 66/33 imbalance so you can't really parade it as a triumph of equality. Last time I looked, women made up just over half of the population. Also, I don't really like to include Uhura as a 'girlfriend' character any more than Spock is a 'boyfriend' or Pike is a 'father substitute' as the main characters are much wider than that. Keiko, Cassidy, Leeta etc are principally girlfriend characters.

The real proof will be in the sequel. There's no doubt that we will see some new females (fingers crossed for Rand and Carol at least) but I'm doubtful that they will grasp the nettle and start allocating the extras' sex randomly so we see an even spread across the board. They seem committed to telling fun stories but not committed to the core principles of equality. It's a shame as it would be so easy to do.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Gaila was a girlfriend, I excluded Winona, Amanda, George, and step dad as they are familial characters. I think you are right that Olsen might have been a man because of a reluctance to kill a woman but hey, that's sexist! What's more it's also daft. Thousands of principle heroines have been killed throughout movie history, most often so we can see the effect their death has on a male character (lover, relative, psycho, cop etc). A reluctance to kill a female extra seems silly.

Thats not what I said. I said, if Olsen and Robau were female the complaint would be: they hate women. Look at the way they killed off Olsen and Robau.

The real proof will be in the sequel. There's no doubt that we will see some new females (fingers crossed for Rand and Carol at least) but I'm doubtful that they will grasp the nettle and start allocating the extras' sex randomly so we see an even spread across the board. They seem committed to telling fun stories but not committed to the core principles of equality. It's a shame as it would be so easy to do.

Like I said there were female extras with speaking parts. On the shuttle and on the bridge. Other than the bullies only one other Vulcan "extra" had a speaking part, the head of the academy admissions panel. And only Admiral "Madea" spoke at Kirk's hearing. So I'm not seeig this great disparity in gender speaking parts. Seems a bit silly to go through the script and divide up each part so the gender are 50/50. I'd rather go with the best actor (meaning both men and women) available.

These guys have done okay in other shows they produce. "Lost" has its share of female roles and the lead character in "Fringe" is a woman. So I'm not too worried about the "He-man Woman Haters Club" raising its ugly head.

Well, take the first episode of the mini series of BSG in isolation.

Lets. Six is Baltar's girlfriend ( and a sex bomb). Starbuck is Zack's girlfriend (Later Apollos) Duella is a cypher (who becomes Apollo's girlfriend). Boomer is a cypher too.( Who in various incarnations becomes Helio's and the Chief's girlfriend(s) ) So that leaves Roslin (who becomes Adama girlfriend.) Boomer and Starbuck were given "gender transplants" to beef up the female side of the cast. Starbuck is cliche no matter what the gender.

 

[Cyke101]

These kinds of threads amaze me...

HE DOESN'T CARE IF TREK FANS LIKE HIS MOVIES OR NOT...comprende? What he DOES care about is whether or not they make money and attract young hip fans like my daughter and others like her WHILE retaining most of TREK's fanbase....its really that simple...

Rob

Um, in order to retain most of Trek's fanbase, Trek fans would have to like his movies to begin with. If you're saying that he's concerned with making money while trying to keep Trek's fans, then I'd say that he would have to care if they like his movies or not.

I don't see how trying to make money and trying to appease fans are somehow mutually exclusive.

 

[Pauln6]

Thats not what I said. I said, if Olsen and Robau were female the complaint would be: they hate women. Look at the way they killed off Olsen and Robau.

Olsen was a red shirt! Women can be red shirts! There are several threads where people rave about how cool Robau was despite getting killed. Simply changing his gender should not have made him so uncool that people would have complained...

Like I said there were female extras with speaking parts. On the shuttle and on the bridge. Other than the bullies only one other Vulcan "extra" had a speaking part, the head of the academy admissions panel. And only Admiral "Madea" spoke at Kirk's hearing. So I'm not seeig this great disparity in gender speaking parts. Seems a bit silly to go through the script and divide up each part so the gender are 50/50. I'd rather go with the best actor (meaning both men and women) available.

I agree, it's not a great disparity. It never has been great. It's probably still 66/33 if you take time to add up the numbers. But WHY is it always 66/33? The problem with your approach is that the sex of the character will be ascribed before they audition the actors in most cases so it isn't a fair way to ensure that the 'best' actor overall gets the part. And lets face it, plenty of poor to average male and female actors get parts.

These guys have done okay in other shows they produce. "Lost" has its share of female roles and the lead character in "Fringe" is a woman. So I'm not too worried about the "He-man Woman Haters Club" raising its ugly head.

They have done quite well it's true! And Alias, while often putting the women in very little clothing, had some great characters too. I don't necessarily expect 'real world' shows to have a 50/50 balance, even if I'd prefer it, since they are reflecting modern society, which isn't equal. Trek is different. It probably was just because they were focusing on the origin story of a predominantly male cast that they overlooked the absence of other women.

Lets. Six is Baltar's girlfriend ( and a sex bomb). Starbuck is Zack's girlfriend (Later Apollos) Duella is a cypher (who becomes Apollo's girlfriend). Boomer is a cypher too.( Who in various incarnations becomes Helio's and the Chief's girlfriend(s) ) So that leaves Roslin (who becomes Adama girlfriend.) Boomer and Starbuck were given "gender transplants" to beef up the female side of the cast. Starbuck is cliche no matter what the gender.

Again, I don't like to label main characters as 'girlfriend' or 'boyfriend' unless that is their main role. Admiral Cain had a six as a girlfriend but there's no way Cain's main role was as a girlfriend! So yeah, Dee and Callie were squandered a bit as principally girlfriends - which is a real shame as Dee's scene with Adama in season one where she took him to task absolutely rocked and in the whole time she was Lee's wife she never got a single solo scene with Adama dammit! But for much of the series Sam was little more than Starbuck's husband so it did cut both ways to a certain extent. Even Ellen Tigh had much more to contribute to the plot than being a wife.

I'm sure if I focus on BSG I will find that there is still an imbalance in the background characters but the show definitely does better with supporting characters such as pilots, marines, and civilian staff.

I really enjoyed the movie; this is just one area where I'd like to see them do better. Although in fairness to the thread, there will be many, many fans who are quite happy for there to be just one or two hot female characters in short skirts and/or underwear and many women who are happy for the women to spend all their time chasing hot guys. If JJ is lloking for overall mass popularity he may decide to stick with that... that doesn't make it right!

 

[Kegg]

There are several threads where people rave about how cool Robau was despite getting killed. Simply changing his gender should not have made him so uncool that people would have complained...

It is pretty much Faran Tahir, though. What some people may not know is the Robau craze was something that just kicked off here on the basis of the casting and an offhand comment about Orci that the character was badass, it actually predates him showing up in the movie (and given his limited and quick-to-die role, it now seems about as preposterous as Boba Fett love).

 

[DevilEyes]

Well, take the first episode of the mini series of BSG in isolation.

Lets. Six is Baltar's girlfriend ( and a sex bomb). Starbuck is Zack's girlfriend (Later Apollos) Duella is a cypher (who becomes Apollo's girlfriend). Boomer is a cypher too.( Who in various incarnations becomes Helio's and the Chief's girlfriend(s) ) So that leaves Roslin (who becomes Adama girlfriend.) Boomer and Starbuck were given "gender transplants" to beef up the female side of the cast. Starbuck is cliche no matter what the gender.

Or rather, Zach's only purpose was as Starbuck's fiancee (and Lee's brother and Bill's son). Anders started off as just Starbuck's boyfriend, and for a long time his main role was just that of Starbuck's husband (and he's also considered a hunk in the fandom). Lee is Starbuck's on-off lover (and considered a hunk in the fandom - though I may not share that opinion - and the show made sure to show his pumped-up muscles in half nude scenes). Baltar is Six's (and, for a while, D'Anna's) boyfriend. Helo is Athena's boyfriend/husband/father of Hera. Chief is initially Boomer's boyfriend, later Cally's husband. Billy is Dualla's boyfriend. Leoben's entire role on the show is that of Starbuck's stalker/spiritual guide/love-hate interest/whatever. Cavil becomes Boomer's boyfriend. You may even say that Saul is Ellen's husband, especially since she turns out to be so important in season 4. Even Gaeta was Hoshi and Eight's boyfriend in the webisodes. So that leaves Adama, who becomes Roslin's boyfriend.

By your logic, there is no male character in BSG (apart from Zarek, an underutilized recurring guest star, and Doral, and underdeveloped reccuring guest star) who is not someone's boyfriend or husband. So why do you choose to only write off female characters that way? This says something about your attitude rather than about BSG.

And please explain how Starbuck is a "cliche"?

 

[Pauln6]

Sex sells, which is why I've often wondered why more women don't feature. The men would be happy to see more women as eye candy and women would be happy as long as they aren't JUST eye candy.

Back on the LGBT theme, I think the Admiral Cain example is a good one. The lesbian relationsip is almost entirely incidental to the plot but is important because Cain's sense of betrayal colours her beaviour towards Six and others.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Starbuck in both incarnations is a bad boy, hotshot, breaks the rules type ace pilot. Which is a cliche. This was not helped by Sackoff's mugging style of acting. ( Or Benedicts for that matter).

I was being a bit hyperbolic to make a point on the whole "girlfriend" complaint regarding Trek's women. Single (and some not so single) characters hooking up with each other is pretty mucha given on TV these days. While in TOS's day the leads were footlose and fancy free so they could have love interests of the week.

 

[Kirk1980]

Me....I just don't care.

I've yet to hear one argument that would persuade me that there should be anything more than an attempt to tell a good story. Gender, orientation and the like can go hang.

You could have the 'gayest', most inclusive movie ever...and if the plot sucked, who'd give a flying tribble?

I sure wouldn't.

 

[Tomalak]

Back on the LGBT theme, I think the Admiral Cain example is a good one. The lesbian relationsip is almost entirely incidental to the plot but is important because Cain's sense of betrayal colours her beaviour towards Six and others.

Meh, I thought there was a bit of the standard "butch lesbian" topos to be honest. I didn't mind it too much though.

However, the Gaeta/Hoshi relationship was excellent. It was just there, a part of their characters, and not a reason to do a "gay" episode. It was totally normal and natural. That's the sort of thing Trek could easily have done at any point, but didn't.

 

[DevilEyes]

Starbuck in both incarnations is a bad boy, hotshot, breaks the rules type ace pilot. Which is a cliche. This was not helped by Sackoff's mugging style of acting. ( Or Benedicts for that matter).

Screwed-up ace pilot with a traumatic childhood spent with an abusive mother and absent father that caused her self-loathing, self-destructive ways; who drinks too much, has a messed-up personal life and keeps hurting and being awful to the people in her life, except for the deep father/daughter relationship with her commander, but who is also very spiritual and religious and has a prophesized special destiny, first conveyed to her by a Cylon with whom she has a weird love/hate relationship.

If that is a cliche, than so is every character ever in Trek, and 99% of other characters on TV and in movies.

I was being a bit hyperbolic to make a point on the whole "girlfriend" complaint regarding Trek's women. Single (and some not so single) characters hooking up with each other is pretty mucha given on TV these days. While in TOS's day the leads were footlose and fancy free so they could have love interests of the week.

The main point is whether a character has other role that is more or at least as important than than their connection to a main character. Main characters usually have other roles that being just an appendage to someone else. For instance, Dualla was relegated to the girlfriend/wife role since she hooked up with Lee, but Starbuck and Roslin were always main characters who were as important for the story as Bill or Lee Adama (Starbuck seemed to be a more important and central character than any of the men she was ever involved with, even Lee IMO). McCoy is Kirk's friend, but he's also the ship doctor and an interesting character in his own right. Uhura is Spock's girlfriend in ST09, but she's first and foremost the Enterprise communications officer. Amanda, on the other hand, is a supporting character whose primary role is that of Spock's mother. Which doesn't mean that supporting characters whose primary role is their relationship with a main character can not be interesting and developed in their own right.

BSG had years. This movie had two hours. TV trek has had Uhura, Rand, Chapel, Janeway, Seven, T'Pol, Kira, Sato, two Daxs, Crusher and Troi. None of whom were just "Girlfriends, wives or mothers" only.

Well, take the first episode of the mini series of BSG in isolation. They still do much better. Modern Tv Trek has slightly more high profile females than TOS and in slightly elevated positions of authority but it has always stuck with a 66/33 imbalance so you can't really parade it as a triumph of equality. Last time I looked, women made up just over half of the population. Also, I don't really like to include Uhura as a 'girlfriend' character any more than Spock is a 'boyfriend' or Pike is a 'father substitute' as the main characters are much wider than that. Keiko, Cassidy, Leeta etc are principally girlfriend characters.

Yes, although that wasn't a gender issue but a main character/supporting character issue. Keiko also had episodes where her role as a teacher ("In the Hands of the Prophets") was important, though she was primarily a wife, and Kassidy was herself a captain of a ship, but her primary role was that of Ben's girlfriend/wife. But it works the same when the genders are reversed - Shakaar was the Prime Minister of Bajor, but since the moment he showed romantic interest in Kira, his role was pretty much exclusively that of Kira's boyfriend - and he was far less developed or well-written than Kassidy. Bareil fared better - the writing stuff never forgot that he was a vedek and Winn's rival - but even in the episodes when it mattered ("The Collaborator", "Life Support") the focus was on his relationship with Kira, and there were other episodes in which he was just Kira's boyfriend.

 

[Pauln6]

Meh, I thought there was a bit of the standard "butch lesbian" topos to be honest. I didn't mind it too much though.

However, the Gaeta/Hoshi relationship was excellent. It was just there, a part of their characters, and not a reason to do a "gay" episode. It was totally normal and natural. That's the sort of thing Trek could easily have done at any point, but didn't.

That was my first instinct with Cain but then I thought, well, why not? Lesbians can be power crazed just as much as anyone. I did wonder if they'd go gay with Gaeta but I didn't realise that they had. I never saw any webisodes.

Trek doesn't have a wide enough cast to go gay unless one of the main characters is bi. Well actually, since NuChekov is a whole different person, I suppose he could be gay. The romantic stuff will focus on Kirk and Spock though. Movie format will not allow time for other characters to get that kind of airtime, nor would I really want them to; there's enough romance going on as it is!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Screwed-up ace pilot with a traumatic childhood spent with an abusive mother and absent father that caused her self-loathing, self-destructive ways; who drinks too much, has a messed-up personal life and keeps hurting and being awful to the people in her life, except for the deep father/daughter relationship with her commander, but who is also very spiritual and religious and has a prophesized special destiny, first conveyed to her by a Cylon with whom she has a weird love/hate relationship.

If that is a cliche, than so is every character ever in Trek, and 99% of other characters on TV and in movies.

The added Starbuck specific backstory doesn't make it any less of a cliche.

I was being a bit hyperbolic to make a point on the whole "girlfriend" complaint regarding Trek's women. Single (and some not so single) characters hooking up with each other is pretty mucha given on TV these days. While in TOS's day the leads were footlose and fancy free so they could have love interests of the week.

The main point is whether a character has other role that is more or at least as important than than their connection to a main character. Main characters usually have other roles that being just an appendage to someone else. For instance, Dualla was relegated to the girlfriend/wife role since she hooked up with Lee, but Starbuck and Roslin were always main characters who were as important for the story as Bill or Lee Adama (Starbuck seemed to be a more important and central character than any of the men she was ever involved with, even Lee IMO). McCoy is Kirk's friend, but he's also the ship doctor and an interesting character in his own right. Uhura is Spock's girlfriend in ST09, but she's first and foremost the Enterprise communications officer. Amanda, on the other hand, is a supporting character whose primary role is that of Spock's mother. Which doesn't mean that supporting characters whose primary role is their relationship with a main character can not be interesting and developed in their own right.

The difference is Amanda in TOS and in the movies is a "guest-star" not a regular lead or supporting character. She was never seen again in TOS after JTB and later appeared in the TOS in the same role as Spock's supportive mother. She's not a character intended to develop beyond that role because she's not the focus of the stories being presented. Even if Amanda had survived in ST09 its doubtful she would have appeared again because Spock rarely needs his mother in most Star Trek movies and she not on the Enterprise. We probably won't se Kirk's mother either.