James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Destroy the old tree

Er... They did, or did you miss the big, action, set piece about three-quarters of the way through the movie that set-off the events going into the climax/third act?

Was the plot predictable? Yes. But, really, any movie you can do that with. In every movie you know the male lead and the female lead are going to hook-up. So, I guess, every single damn movie every made that has a male character and a female character in it is "predictable." (Look at Terminator. You telling me you didn't "know" that Resse would hook-up with Sarah Connor?)

I admit there's plot elements in this movie that are thin and predictable but, honestly, we can say that about pretty much any movie out there. As was said above, there's no original stories out there. Every story is predictable on some level just off-of how the whole notion of how fiction works.

You didn't like the movie, fine. But your reasons should make a bit more sense than "knowing" things will happen based on the fact that every movie ever made -with some, rare, exception- follows, more-or-less, the same pattern.

They destroyed their home, but not the old tree at the end, which they were trying to do. They should have done that (whatever the hell that tree was called that they all ran too when their big tree fell).

Bullshit. There are tons of original movies still being created, or at least they have a lot of original elements and a twist on old classics. This is what the movie should have been.

The problem is, this movie was riddled with cliches and predictability story that it made it very hard to really enjoy the movie because there is no excitement and really no conflict. There is no attachment to any of the characters.

Maybe I'm kind of tired of paper thing storytelling blockbusters? I've hammered Transformers (both of them), GI Joe, and multiple other major blockbusters.

 

[melancholymecha]

I dunno, isnt it ok for one to watch a movie, acknowledge that it isnt good, but still enjoy it? that was the case for me with Avatar and with Terminator Salvation. I admit that both these arent great & I understand and agree with all the weaknesaes that have been pointed out in the thread, but I still enjoyed the films. I cant really explain why. I also sat through Twilight and didnt like that, but I know there are many who loved it. But I dont expect them to give me a proper explanation as to why they liked it and for they to suddenly change their minds b/c I point out all the flaws the film has. Its a subjective thing, like all art is.

 

[Gryffindorian]

I dunno, isnt it ok for one to watch a movie, acknowledge that it isnt good, but still enjoy it? that was the case for me with Avatar and with Terminator Salvation. I admit that both these arent great & I understand and agree with all the weaknesaes that have been pointed out in the thread, but I still enjoyed the films. I cant really explain why. I also sat through Twilight and didnt like that, but I know there are many who loved it. But I dont expect them to give me a proper explanation as to why they liked it and for they to suddenly change their minds b/c I point out all the flaws the film has. Its a subjective thing, like all art is.

To each his/her own, to echo JacksonArcher. I thought Terminator Salvation was so-so. I was underwhelmed by X-Men Origins: Wolverine. GI Joe was a mindless popcorn action flick. Did I think any of these movies were terrible? No, I think to some extent they were pretty well done, and I did enjoy myself. Will I (or did I) buy the DVDs or Blu-Rays? Nope, I'm not in the least bit interested in adding them to my home library collection. When I go to the movies, I typically read the reviews and hear about the hype, but I form my own opinion and perception of the film. The key is not to look at a movie from an extreme point of view.

 

[Daneel]

Box office update: Avatar made $16,385,820 yesterday, the 3rd-highest amount ever made by a film on a non-holiday Monday. Its domestic total now stands at $93,411,301.

 

[JacksonArcher]

I wonder how Sherlock Holmes will stack up against Avatar.

 

[Blue_Trek]

One reviewer summed it nice, "plot be dammed, this is a movie going experience".

I only know 2 movies that have given me a "movie going experience" in my lifetime, Star Wars A New Hope & Terminator 2. Yes there are other awesome movies that I have enjoyed immensely for a variety of reason, but only two have made it to that level, and I hope that when I myself see it in IMAX 3D I will be able to add a third(Damm these sold out shows)

Word of mouth on this movie is very strong, people at work were talking about it today,and it was all very positive, in fact a senior citizen I work with said he will see it a second time because there was so much to take in on screen, he had to of missed stuff. At the restaurant during my lunch break I overheard people talking about it too.

I also just re-watched The Last Samurai, what a great movie, it kinda tanked at the box office domestically, too bad.

 

[Kegg]

So I've finally seen it. What can I say that has not already been said?

Probably nothing. I liked it, though. It is an emotionally flat film that occasionally makes the mistake of thinking we've invested some empathy with its characters (particularly when they die - most all deaths in this film happen to rather uninteresting people); but thankfully its displays of sentimentality are fairly brief (worst case: Sigourney Weaver crying 'You murderers!' in slo-mo. Fast approaching King Kong levels of bathos.) I was left feeling a little empty, like chowing down on fast food, but I also love fast food and come back for more.

The pacing was excellent, the visuals - particularly the colouring - was superb, and Cameron got tired old cliches to work for him. Having established the ethereal beauty of the trees managed to get one interested in them being bulldozed in the next scene. And so on - though again, investment is fairly minimal.

I am probably sounding more critical here then I intend, so I'd restate that I liked the film. Gorgeous planetary romance stuff, excellent performances from the two leads, and the dialogue, while simple, is snappy, brief and swiftly moving along. As a writer Cameron at least has a good grasp of an economy of words. In a banner year for science fiction, Avatar is a fine bit of spectacle to go out on - and one I did like.

Er. I'm just repeating the last twenty pages am I not?

Right, right. Uh. Stephen Lang is exactly the sort of villain I wanted Nero to be. Nero didn't need to be deep or complicated, he merely needed to be a fun villain we wanted to see offed. Eric Bana comes off as petulant and whiny; Lang chews scenery with gusto.

That said, Star Trek had more warmth and humanity to it, I felt; I could invest more in its characters and the film rarely missed an emotional beat as Avatar did once or thrice. I was perplexed why the annihilation of Vulcan was so undersold (and even more confused by how well it worked for me), but the rather overblown destruction of Hometree does stress to me why: If you didn't care, as the regular moviegoer may have felt about Vulcan, the film had rather not better demand you care. It has less spectacle than this or the Star Wars prequels but I'll be damned if it isn't just a plain better movie. Honest.

But my god. Ignoring the SFX achievement for a moment here, what wonderful visuals conceptually this movie has. Including the SFX achievement, when I saw the tongue of one of those rottweiler beasts I could not but gasp as it looked just like a real tongue. That was probably the most impressive moment for me.

Airing radical notion: 3D was merely okay for me, a trifle eyeball-straining, and the final action sequence... I've had better. It was good, though, but not by far one of my favourite action sequences committed to film.

Also, more often than not I find there are moments in sci-fi action movies that make me smile. Transformers had such a moment and it was not a good film, and that moment was when Peter Cullen majestically intoned 'I am Optimus Prime.' Star Trek had one such moment every five minutes - things that make me geek out and chuckle knowingly to myself. Avatar had two: One when the blue guys rode out for the first time in their six-legged horses. It was like my fevered ten year old imagination brought to life.

The second time? He jumps onto the turok, after dryly explaining his strategy. Yes, I was expecting it, but I loved it for precisely that reason - everyone likes the bit in Dune where Muad'Dib tames the sandworm, and if you don't what's wrong with you? This is that moment. It is cool.

And damn is this one cool movie. It's just overflowing with... stuff. Huge airships and weird monsters and awesome alien races who live in trees and so on. I am, as said, a planetary romance fan. I eat this stuff up.

Right, two further thoughts: First, what would the Na'vi be like if they didn't have dreadlocks? Would those stems still grow out as they did in the film?

Second, the most mind-boggling idea to me was the one where I realised that as the avatar was sleeping Jake was awake and working. The idea we can sleep and then wake up and thus be conscious continually by alternating bodies, reclaiming that missing third of the life-cycle, was just something that struck me as, well, bizarre. That's just me though.

Well, that was a waste of a page, wasn't it? Never matter. Bring on Avatar II.

 

[Jono]

^^ There's also the director effect, certain directors seem to get more favourable treatment by the public and critics in general.

For example it would have been interesting to read the responses if this was Michael Bay's Avatar instead. Not that I have anything against Bay but he seems to be the most popular director to pick on in recent times.

If you seriously think that Bay is on par with Cameron... I don't know how I can respond to that. You just need to compare their films closer.

The point I was making is that they are not on par with each other. If I was saying they were I wouldn't need to say I didn't have anything against Bay since I would be complimenting him to say he's on par with a director of the renown of Cameron.

I just pointed out some people's opinion of a film can be shaped by their views of that director. That if the exact same movie was made by Bay that the general lower opinion of Bay would see these people focus more heavily on its faults.

 

[Trekker4747]

I wonder how Sherlock Holmes will stack up against Avatar.

It won't.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Why the Na'vi might live happily ever after:

This planet, I understand, is in the Alpha Centauri system.

That means it will be 4 years before Earth even hears of the rebellion (2158).

About 5.5 years before the surviving Earthmen get back to explain what happened (2159.5)

Now let's assume that there are Earthlings who are going to take a strong "no war for unobtanium" stance, along with truly thinking conservatives who understand that the Na'vi were, in fact, defending their private property (which is the real message of this movie; don't steal shit that ain't yours, monkey boy) - the Company is going to have to deal with this somehow, along with the fact that nobody really likes losers. So funding for the Great Pandora Invasion Fleet is going to be somewhat difficult to come by, even if a Bush is President-CEO of Earth. So let's say, four years minimum to get all this put together, even if it's possible at all. Huge expenses involved here.

So really, is the Company going to glass Pandora, really? Are Earthlings really going to tolerate genocide? I doubt it. Right now, you have to have O2 masks to survive on Pandora; are you really willing to have your people work in radiation suits, too?

So assuming the glassing Pandora option is out, President George W. Bush V decides to invade. That means the mighty Earthling army will have to fight a bush war at the end of a 5.5 year long one way trip supply line, against a whole planet where the natives know the land better than you and can make their weapons right there...unlike you, General Halliburton, who has to have every single bullet and gallon of chopper fuel, every man and gun and helicopter, shipped to you over 4 light years of interstellar space.

Costly. VERY costly. And in the meantime the Na'vi are going to have at least a decade to develop better weapons, tactics and, also, to dig in.

I like your George W. Bush V touch. Very frightening.

Well... if the planet is sentience. then it now has the downloaded knowledge of a 22nd century scientist and the 22nd century knowledge of a marine... in addition to the other information it gleened from those other avatars if they download their consciousness perminently into their avatar...

gotta think the planet has the advantage on this one...

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Saw it again ... in 2D this time. Take away the "egads!" aspect of the visuals and the film flounders, mightily -- especially in the second half, following the "mating" scene. There are some clear issues with pacing afoot. I dunno how this film will hold up with multiple viewings, at least for my part.

And the second time around, I found the dialogue much, much less palatable.

That being said, some specific scenes still resonate: I found that the "flying montage," the mating scene itself, and Jake's transference scene (especially with the reactions from Neytiri) still conveyed a great deal of pure emotion. Good stuff, that.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Thanks for your review, Kegg - I was starting to wonder what you thought about it, since you posted pretty frequently in the anticipation thread. Avatar is probably the most pure "planetary romance" genre film that Hollywood has produced in a very long time.

As for an "emotionally flat film", that's where I personally disagree. Cameron certainly managed to get me invested enough in the Jake/Neytiri romance, which I thought was *VERY* well executed. And the the final scene in the shack at the end really, really blew me away. Quite powerful, and also in a "how the *&*(#$ did they do that!!!" way.

As for character deaths...

Spoiler: character deaths

- Grace's death was well done (did ya notice all the foreshadowing in the dialog leading up to it? "I'd die to get a sample there" and "Why don't you shoot me"-"I can do that" )
- Trudy's and Tsu'Tey's deaths however could/should have hit home stronger

After a 2nd viewing I found that I really appreciated the middle of the film much more... While the last action is still epic, it did not grow on my as much as the quiet scenes did.

 

[Hyperspace05]

That said, Star Trek had more warmth and humanity to it, I felt; I could invest more in its characters and the film rarely missed an emotional beat as Avatar did once or thrice. I was perplexed why the annihilation of Vulcan was so undersold (and even more confused by how well it worked for me), but the rather overblown destruction of Hometree does stress to me why: If you didn't care, as the regular moviegoer may have felt about Vulcan, the film had rather not better demand you care.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you... But you really thought the Vulcan destruction worked better in that sense (as for people caring) than the destruction of Hometree? I'd have to strongly disagree... For the general population at least. Through Jake we do get to spend time in the tree, see its inhabitants. It worked for me at least. But Vulcan? Only a deep trekkie could probably say that. (no offence). But most aren't given enough time on Vulcan to get attached to it. Nor myself, since Vulcans have been consistently in latter Trek series been portrayed as assholes. (Ok, mostly Enterprise) And for me it was kind of exciting, since it meant that this timeline would become rather different.

First, what would the Na'vi be like if they didn't have dreadlocks? Would those stems still grow out as they did in the film?

Yes, I would imagine that.

Second, the most mind-boggling idea to me was the one where I realised that as the avatar was sleeping Jake was awake and working. The idea we can sleep and then wake up and thus be conscious continually by alternating bodies, reclaiming that missing third of the life-cycle, was just something that struck me as, well, bizarre. That's just me though.

But it wasn't reclaimed... He was getting more and more exhausted as he did not get enough sleep. I got the impression that as soon as he exited the Avatar, he made a report, and then went to bed. (sometimes even falling asleep while doing the report) And once he woke up, he ate, and jumped into the Avatar.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

I wonder how Sherlock Holmes will stack up against Avatar.

It won't.

Given that it is RDJ...I think it'll have some legs.

 

[Kegg]

^
It'll have some legs, but Sam Worthington did fine without those.

(Sorry...)

Cameron certainly managed to get me invested enough in the Jake/Neytiri romance, which I thought was *VERY* well executed.

I liked the Jake/Neytiri romance, though this came down mostly to the actors and their chemistry. I felt it was emotionally flat because, well, beyond that the film doesn't have anything, and I was only invested in the romance to a point.

As for character deaths...

Spoiler: character deaths

- Grace's death was well done (did ya notice all the foreshadowing in the dialog leading up to it? "I'd die to get a sample there" and "Why don't you shoot me"-"I can do that" )
- Trudy's and Tsu'Tey's deaths however could/should have hit home stronger

Spoiler: character deaths

I was mainly thinking of Trudy and Tsu'Tey. Especially Tsu'Tey. I don't mind giving him a heroic death, but the way the film lingers on it it almost seems to be expecting a reaction from me. There is really nothing to this character - he was vaguely annoying at first and then evolved into a non-entity. Trudy might have had a mite bit more humour to her but she still wasn't much of a character.

Grace's death was very nice in that it was a very visually interesting thing, which is true of most of the film. It was also more understated than those, which is nice. The disadvantage I observed about Avatar's sentimentality is offset by the comparative lack of time spent on it.

After a 2nd viewing I found that I really appreciated the middle of the film much more... While the last action is still epic, it did not grow on my as much as the quiet scenes did.

I liked the quiet scenes better the first time around, actually. Scenes like Jake and Neytiri at the Tree where they can speak to their ancestors is one of my favourite scenes in the film. Pandora delivers; it has a beautiful worldscape. I may just see this movie twice.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you... But you really thought the Vulcan destruction worked better in that sense (as for people caring) than the destruction of Hometree? I'd have to strongly disagree... For the general population at least.

Actually, the general population is what makes it make sense. You could have given me a big epic Vulcan destruction like Hometree and I might have teared up, it is, after all, Vulcan, and I'm a big Trekkie.

But to regular joe it's just Spock's home planet, the one with those prissy old guys and bullies from earlier in the movie. They can understand in principle why annihilating it is a bad thing (the same as Hometree) but demanding they care might overstrain their emotional investment in the film... so it doesn't. It does get across the point that Spock is torn up over losing his mother, and that's something we can all get behind, to be sure.

So it's not that it elicits more emotion, it just doesn't overreach for an audience reaction. That's what I meant.

But it wasn't reclaimed... He was getting more and more exhausted as he did not get enough sleep. I got the impression that as soon as he exited the Avatar, he made a report, and then went to bed. (sometimes even falling asleep while doing the report) And once he woke up, he ate, and jumped into the Avatar.

Ah. No wonder he felt disconnected from his old body then, and not just because his human self is a cripple while his Na'vi self is a badass warrior.

But yeah, the film is a great achievement as a planetary romance epic. I cannot offhand think of another planetary romance epic movie I necessarily like more, and only a few other examples of the genre (Dune... um... did I say Dune? I do like Dune, though.)

 

[Trekker4747]

I wonder how Sherlock Holmes will stack up against Avatar.

It won't.

Given that it is RDJ...I think it'll have some legs.

Oh it'll have legs, sure, and it'll do well, but I think Avatar will still retain the #1 spot this weekend and its gross will be greater than Holmes'.

 

[Caliburn24]

Naw, Holmes will take the top spot. It might not keep it except for the first weekend though.

 

[barnaclelapse]

One reviewer summed it nice, "plot be dammed, this is a movie going experience".

I only know 2 movies that have given me a "movie going experience" in my lifetime, Star Wars A New Hope & Terminator 2. Yes there are other awesome movies that I have enjoyed immensely for a variety of reason, but only two have made it to that level, and I hope that when I myself see it in IMAX 3D I will be able to add a third(Damm these sold out shows)

Word of mouth on this movie is very strong, people at work were talking about it today,and it was all very positive, in fact a senior citizen I work with said he will see it a second time because there was so much to take in on screen, he had to of missed stuff. At the restaurant during my lunch break I overheard people talking about it too.

I also just re-watched The Last Samurai, what a great movie, it kinda tanked at the box office domestically, too bad.

Yeah, I think that's what was so funny about this movie to me. I'm usually the most interested in writing, acting and the like. It's generally very, very difficult for me to suspend all of those things in favor of just enjoying the ride. Avatar managed that feat, and that's no small accomplishment in my case.

I really do need to re-watch it without the IMAX. I do wonder how much of that influenced my perspective.

 

[Kegg]

A further thought: This film really has set the bar by which Sam Raimi's Warcraft will be judged.

I've seen more than a few comparisons to Warcraft (invariably disparaging - but hey, I like Warcraft!); but seriously, that film needs to get in on this new technology. I can't see the Tauren being done any other way and not seeming laughable, and this probably would be a better route to take the Orcs than prosthetics.

Besides, I hear Teldrassil is going to be in that movie, and if you want your giant hometree to look good, anyway...

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

A further thought: This film really has set the bar by which Sam Raimi's Warcraft will be judged.

I've seen more than a few comparisons to Warcraft (invariably disparaging - but hey, I like Warcraft!); but seriously, that film needs to get in on this new technology. I can't see the Tauren being done any other way and not seeming laughable, and this probably would be a better route to take the Orcs than prosthetics.

Besides, I hear Teldrassil is going to be in that movie, and if you want your giant hometree to look good, anyway...

This was the first thing I noticed, as I used to be a rabid World of Warcraft player. It really felt like Azeroth and Outland come to life, like Nagrand, Teldrassil, and any number of Jungle zones. Its not a knock as I thought it was really cool to see the Nagrand-esque floating chunks of land. For a while i thought the Na'vi were night elf ripoffs, but after giving it some thought I think they were just sort of cliche'd "mystical tribal" types using the same tropes as night elves.