"...the men from Vulcan treat their women strangely."

[Tribbles]

I'm always curious about this line from Christine Chapel's declaration of love to Mr. Spock (The Naked Time). She goes on to assume that he wouldn't "hurt" her:

"...the men from Vulcan treat their women strangely. At least, people say that, but you’re part human, too. I know you don’t, you couldn’t, hurt me, would you?"

What does she mean? Is she referring to Vulcan being a patriarchal society? Surely Vulcan men don't physically harm their wives? Or does she mean emotional pain?

I considered the possibility that she might be thinking about pon farr. Spock says it's not discussed with outsiders, but perhaps its potential physical harm to women may be a matter of rumor among humans. If this is on her mind, I'd say it's peripheral perhaps to the emotional turmoil a human woman might face from loving a Vulcan man.

 

[DevilEyes]

I considered the possibility that she might be thinking about pon farr. Spock says it's not discussed with outsiders, but perhaps its potential physical harm to women may be a matter of rumor among humans.

Probably. But since most Humans probably don't really know much about Vulcans, there are probably a lot of exaggerated rumors about Vulcan men becoming wild and violent during Pon Farr - and then take it from there and imagine all sorts of stories that might have sprung from that. (Of course, TOS never bothered to explain whether Vulcan women undergo Pon Farr as well. )

Emotional pain may be an issue for a Human woman, but not for a Vulcan woman, since they are as emotionally reserved as Vulcan men are.

 

[Admiral Shran]

"...the men from Vulcan treat their women strangely. At least, people say that, but you’re part human, too. I know you don’t, you couldn’t, hurt me, would you?"

What does she mean? Is she referring to Vulcan being a patriarchal society? Surely Vulcan men don't physically harm their wives? Or does she mean emotional pain?

I'd say she was referring to how Vulcan men treat their wives emotionally. It would certainly seem strange to humans that a husband would express absolutely no love or affection towards his wife.

As for not hurting her - probably both physically and emotionally. Certainly Spock wouldn't, couldn't, hurt her in an emotional way. And he wouldn't harm her physically either, it's not logical to physically harm your mate. I doubt the Pon Farr has anything to do it. Remember that the Pon Farr was an extremely personal element of a Vulcan's personality. I wasn't dicussed with non-Vulcans, expect when absolutely necessary. Tuvok and T'Pol both later tried to not talk about it with non-Vulcans. Therefore, Chapel probably doesn't know that much about it.

 

[Green Shirt]

I don't recall, but wasn't she under the influence of the PSI 2000 disease at the time she asked the question?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'd say she was referring to how Vulcan men treat their wives emotionally. It would certainly seem strange to humans that a husband would express absolutely no love or affection towards his wife.

Conversely, it would seem very natural that humans *assume* Vulcan couples don't express love towards each other, but I highly doubt this is true. Vulcans probably just express it differently.

 

[Hambone]

You're all reading too much into this. Vulcan men all have those sex-swing things in their bedrooms. That's all.

 

[Timo]

I'd say she was referring to how Vulcan men treat their wives emotionally. It would certainly seem strange to humans that a husband would express absolutely no love or affection towards his wife.

But that'd be an oddly biased view. After all, Vulcan wives would also fail to express love towards their husbands. If Chapel fails to recognize this, we're back to claiming that she has misconceptions about Vulcan customs, rather than authentic knowledge - and then we cannot really answer the question "what is she talking about?" because we cannot know what misconceptions she holds.

Whether Vulcan is a matriarchal or patriarchal culture, Sarek certainly looks like he's keeping his wife on a short leash. Perhaps said Ambassador is the only Vulcan that humans have had a chance to observe, and thus to form misconceptions about? Or perhaps all Vulcan Ambassadors interacting with humans are like that - males chosen for their authoritarian attitudes? Funny in any case that Nurse Chapel seems to know more about Vulcans than her superior officers do...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DevilEyes]

Remember that the Pon Farr was an extremely personal element of a Vulcan's personality. I wasn't dicussed with non-Vulcans, expect when absolutely necessary. Tuvok and T'Pol both later tried to not talk about it with non-Vulcans. Therefore, Chapel probably doesn't know that much about it.

How come Droxine (The Cloud Minders) had heard about it?

Whether Vulcan is a matriarchal or patriarchal culture, Sarek certainly looks like he's keeping his wife on a short leash. Perhaps said Ambassador is the only Vulcan that humans have had a chance to observe, and thus to form misconceptions about? Or perhaps all Vulcan Ambassadors interacting with humans are like that - males chosen for their authoritarian attitudes?

That's pretty hard to believe. It's not like Humans and Vulcans had only known each other for a couple of years, or that there aren't any distinguished female Vulcans Humans would have been familiar with. Shouldn't they at least have been familiar with T'Pau?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Remember that the Pon Farr was an extremely personal element of a Vulcan's personality. I wasn't dicussed with non-Vulcans, expect when absolutely necessary. Tuvok and T'Pol both later tried to not talk about it with non-Vulcans. Therefore, Chapel probably doesn't know that much about it.

How come Droxine (The Cloud Minders) had heard about it?

She's Spock's cyber staker.

 

[threeb]

Conversely, it would seem very natural that humans *assume* Vulcan couples don't express love towards each other, but I highly doubt this is true. Vulcans probably just express it differently.

I agree with you. I seriously doubt that *no* love exists in Vulcan families, otherwise they would be indifferent to their offspring, wouldn't care what they did once they left home, etc. IMHO, Vulcans love each other, they just feel no need to say/demonstrate it like humans do.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Conversely, it would seem very natural that humans *assume* Vulcan couples don't express love towards each other, but I highly doubt this is true. Vulcans probably just express it differently.

I agree with you. I seriously doubt that *no* love exists in Vulcan families, otherwise they would be indifferent to their offspring, wouldn't care what they did once they left home, etc. IMHO, Vulcans love each other, they just feel no need to say/demonstrate it like humans do.

There's no doubt that Vulcans experience love. They experience the same full range of emotions as Humans. They just repress their emotions so that they don't become overwhelmed. Even Sarak experienced emotions. After his mind-meld with Picard, we learn that he deeply loved his family and greatly regretted never being close with Spock. He just never let on because that's "not their way."

 

[Brutal Strudel]

On Vulcan, to express love is the height of poor taste. Spock says so in the same episode that inspired this thread.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I always assumed she was talking about the pon farr, or probably about the rumors about it.

 

[M'Sharak]

I don't recall, but wasn't she under the influence of the PSI 2000 disease at the time she asked the question?

She was. It's the scene where Chapel infects Spock.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I figured she'd just heard some freaky rumors that had no more than a kernel of truth.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Part of the purpose of this line was to depict Vulcans as exotic, mysterious, indeed, alien. That's why it was deliberately left vague.
A similar effort was made in an early TNG, when the then-adventurous Riker was testing his mettle against an enraged Worf in the holodeck. Picard and the others are up on the bridge, pacing nervously, remarking on how some parts of the Klingon psyche shouldn't be explored.
Damn but I miss real Star Trek.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In ST XI, Sarek openly said that he married Amanda because he loved her. And this is a full blooded Vulcan saying this. I'd say that counts for something.

I think we all know Vulcans can and do love. They may not show it like we expect them to, but they still do. And other cultures appreciate this too, since we've seen Vulcan men marry human women (Sarek and Amanda), human men marry Vulcan women (that one TNG episode where Crusher is accused of murder), and of course Chapel's crush on Spock.

Non-canon though it may be, one of my favorite depictions of this is in the novel Vulcan's Heart.

Spoiler: novel

There's one bit where we see what has happened to Spock and Saavik's bedroom after their pon farr-fueled wedding night. Basically the place got torn to shreds. Everything that could be picked up and thrown around, was. Furniture in pieces everywhere. So I'm guessing that Vulcans, in the throes of passion, are quite fierce.

 

[Tribbles]

Thank you all for your responses! Though she was indeed infected at the time, I don't personally think that would affect her knowledge (true or rumor-based) of Vulcans (if that's what was implied; sorry if that's not what you meant, Green Shirt).

From a writer's perspective, I think you're correct, A beaker full of death. It certainly accomplishes its goal because even now, despite the expansion of the universe and canon regarding Vulcans, it sparks discussion! A clever bit of dialogue in that regard.

Mr. Laser Beam, that spoiler from Vulcan's Heart.... *fans self* I guess Christine is willing to take her chances.

 

[Myasishchev]

I'd say she was referring to how Vulcan men treat their wives emotionally. It would certainly seem strange to humans that a husband would express absolutely no love or affection towards his wife.

Conversely, it would seem very natural that humans *assume* Vulcan couples don't express love towards each other, but I highly doubt this is true. Vulcans probably just express it differently.

It would beg the question why they'd bother cohabiting whatsoever. Sure, the occasional mating, but this doesn't require a shared permanent address. Economic unity is presumably pointless in the Federation welfare state (although maybe not, look at poor McCoy). And if emotion is to be stripped out of everything entirely, children should probably be raised by the state.

Which probably means there are some practical hard limits to how unemotional Vulcans are or are even supposed to be.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Conversely, it would seem very natural that humans *assume* Vulcan couples don't express love towards each other, but I highly doubt this is true. Vulcans probably just express it differently.

I don't know how anyone can look at the interaction between Sarek and Amanda in Journey to Babel and not see the affection between them, right down to the "formal" finger-touching. After all, Vulcans are touch-telepaths. The finger holding is downright intimate.