Why make Paris a lieutenant?

[Kai Winn]

anyay, did you know that of the some 50 federation admirals ever shown on star trek, only one was non-human? sitak, vulcan, ds9. that's remarkable in a union of 150+ different races.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm guessing that half the admirals you are mentioning were from ST6 The Undiscovered country where they just had a slue of the buggers sitting down listening to Spock being dead sexy?

I have a theory that what the humans offered the original charter members of the Federation was their prodigious birthrate which can be be transformed into cheaply trained canon fodder ie: the backbone of Starfleet.

I have another theory.

It's possible that starfleet is not as elite as we've been told. maybe all the species in the federation with IQ's topping 300 with comparable physical abilities have better places to enlist inside the boundaries of the federation?

 

[Red Ranger]

Most military terminology sounds pretty silly. Vice Admiral? REAR Admiral

Admiral: Admiral is a corruption of the Old French Amiral, which was itself a corruption of the Arabic Amir-ar-rahl, "chief of the transport", from Amir, Arabic for "leader"

Vice Admiral: Vice is Latin for "in place of"; thus, a Vice Admiral is an officer who acts in place of the commanding Admiral, like the Vice President is to the President. Lieutenant general has similar etymology, from French rather than Latin.

Rear Admiral: Age-of-Sail squadrons were generally separated into three divisions, the rearmost of which was typically commanded by the most junior admiral; thus, a Rear Admiral was one who commanded the rear division of a squadron. The army equivalent, Major General, was originally termed "Sergeant-Major General"; the rank of Major itself is also short for Sergeant-Major, which ultimately became a senior enlisted grade.

I thought "admiral" meant, in Arabic, "commander of the sea." Also, lt. cmdr. arose in the 19th century American Navy. At that time, the young American Navy had no admirals, and didn't want to promote captains to that rank, as they didn't want to create a naval aristocracy similar to the English navy. So lieutenants were given command of smaller ships, and were called, "lieutenant, commanding." That eventually became the actual rank of lt. cmdr. -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

Certain jobs require certain ranks.

Paris as chief helmsman is a division head. Which means he has a large staff of pilots who have regular shifts as well as tourists which just want to have shift for kicks. I recall a novel where they let McCoy have a go at driving the "original" Enterprise because it seemed like a lazy day. but Tom has to Yell at his staff and dictate to them what to do and when, and doll out punishment and promotion by tattling endless reports to the XO.

It's an administerial position which requires the presence of underlings

Here's the rub.

When Tom got Demoted, someone else took over as Section head, and that person despite doing all the paper work decided to let Tom still do the lion share of the piloting and talking at the big table and then when Tom got his rank back just humbly stepped aside relinquishing their job and all it's perks...

Remember how Decker got demoted to Lt Commander when Kirk stole his command in the Motionless picture?

Okay, here's one for you.

If Chalotay and Tuvok are Lt Commander's then what was Commander Bartlett doing on Voyager before he died?

Actually, Decker was demoted one grade, from captain to full commander, the same rank as Spock in most of TOS and in TMP. Your Memory Alpha link about Bartlett has some interesting conjecture about his presence. -- RR

 

[Cicero]

anyay, did you know that of the some 50 federation admirals ever shown on star trek, only one was non-human? sitak, vulcan, ds9. that's remarkable in a union of 150+ different races.

We've also seen at least:

Full Admirals
Admiral T'Lara, a Vulcan (DS9: Rules of Engagement)
A Federation Council member, an Andorian (The Voyage Home)
Another Federation Council member, a Caitian (The Voyage Home)

Rear Admiral
The Commandant of Starfleet Academy, a Bolian (DS9: Paradise Lost)

Commodore
A Third Federation Council member, another Caitian (The Voyage Home)

 

[Pavonis]

Does anyone else think it odd that so many of Federation councilors seem to be Starfleet brass?

 

[Triskelion]

So, nobody knows then, what starship duties are different between ranks? I can understand a hierarchy based on seniority, as a way of dividing up the population. But are there any duty differences at all between a LTJG/LT or a LT/LTCMDR? I can't think of any mentions. The show seems to have glossed over any clear privilege of rank or duty changes - other than command, and chain of command. Maybe that was the point?

Because rank doesn't seem to be a requisite to be bridge officer. Ensign Kim was Chief Operations Officer. How does that work, did he order around lieutenant commanders every day?

 

[Cicero]

Most military terminology sounds pretty silly. Vice Admiral? REAR Admiral

Admiral: Admiral is a corruption of the Old French Amiral, which was itself a corruption of the Arabic Amir-ar-rahl, "chief of the transport", from Amir, Arabic for "leader"

Vice Admiral: Vice is Latin for "in place of"; thus, a Vice Admiral is an officer who acts in place of the commanding Admiral, like the Vice President is to the President. Lieutenant general has similar etymology, from French rather than Latin.

Rear Admiral: Age-of-Sail squadrons were generally separated into three divisions, the rearmost of which was typically commanded by the most junior admiral; thus, a Rear Admiral was one who commanded the rear division of a squadron. The army equivalent, Major General, was originally termed "Sergeant-Major General"; the rank of Major itself is also short for Sergeant-Major, which ultimately became a senior enlisted grade.

I thought "admiral" meant, in Arabic, "commander of the sea."

There seems to be some disagreement as to which of Amir-ar-rahl, "chief/commander of the transport" and Amir-al-bahr "chief/commander of the sea" was corrupted into the Latin admirallus "admiral", which may have directly informed the English word, but is certainly the ultimate origin of the word in the Western Indo-European languages. Whichever Arabic phrase was the source, it appears that only the Amir-ar "chief/commander of" portion was included in the corrupted word.

Also, lt. cmdr. arose in the 19th century American Navy. At that time, the young American Navy had no admirals, and didn't want to promote captains to that rank, as they didn't want to create a naval aristocracy similar to the English navy. So lieutenants were given command of smaller ships, and were called, "lieutenant, commanding." That eventually became the actual rank of lt. cmdr. -- RR

The Royal Navy also instituted a rank between commander and lieutenant at roughly the same time. The British termed the grade "Lieutenant and Commander", in the style of the previous "Master and Commander", but eventually adopted the American term. (So far as I know, the origin of the rank wasn't connected to the American disdain for admiralty.)

 

[kimc]

Given Janeway's propensity to hand out promotions without orders from any central authority, yes, she could.

Did any of the captain's need to clear promotions thru a central authority? I don't recall that being mentioned in any of the Treks...

Why would it have been? The flow of paperwork between a ship or outpost and Starfleet Command wouldn't have been very good drama. Unless a writer wanted to tell a story about Starfleet bureaucracy, there would be no reason to even mention it. All we've see is the unit recommendation and appointment, not the approval process.

I guess it was the wording of "Janeway's propensity" that made me think you expected her to get Starfleet approval before giving out a promotion...

 

[Pavonis]

Because rank doesn't seem to be a requisite to be bridge officer. Ensign Kim was Chief Operations Officer. How does that work, did he order around lieutenant commanders every day?

Well, Ensign Kim may have been the only operations officer left in the operations department after the rough trip to the Delta Quadrant. And he probably didn't end up ordering any lieutenant commanders around, since Tuvok and Chakotay were probably the only ones at that rank aboard. Other ensigns and non-commissioned officers were likely under Kim's authority. Voyager wasn't top-heavy with commanders.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kim was Chief of Operations before the crew got fractioned.

His direct staff are obviously all enlisted crewmen.

Consider Warhead

KIM: Helm, status.
JENKINS: Current speed, warp five, heading oh twenty one, mark three.
KIM: Anything on long-range sensors?
JENKINS: Nothing to report.
KIM: As you were.
JENKINS: Permission to speak freely, sir.
KIM: Why would tonight be any different?
JENKINS: People have been talking about you.
KIM: Oh?
JENKINS: Rumour has it you were the one who outsmarted the smart bomb.
KIM: Well, not exactly. I made first contact with a sentient being. All I did was help it understand a few things. The rest was up to him.
JENKINS: Understood. Actually, I've been authorised by the junior staff to thank you for keeping us in one piece.
KIM: You're welcome. Any time. Do me a favour?
JENKINS: Of course, sir.
KIM: No more distress calls. At least not tonight.

"junior staff"

How much of Janeway's crew was fresh out of the academy or been enlisted five minutes before Caretaker got horny that Harry kim would have one iota of seniority over any figure in the crew who is not Maquis sporting a provisional rank badge? 3 people? 7 people? half her original crew? The half that lived or the half that died? Voyager wasn't the best ship for the best of the best, it was 'training wheels" for toddlers and the ship was given a captain comenstruate with that mission statement if she wasn't in denial that Voyager was playpen?

Then of course there's Future's End.

Kim was given Command of the ship.

B'Elanna was at his side every step of the way subservient to him completely despite completely outranking him in that she had both a higher rank and that her immediate staff was probably already 2 thirds of the crew that she would barely notice the additional weight of being in charge of the mission compared to any other day she stops the engines from blowing up while plodding from point a to point b.

Being a myopic bloke who sides with Al Bundy on most subjects, and Archie Bunker before him, I normally assume that the feminist agenda is just some conjob to replace disability insurance, but I believe in this case that kim was given command because he has a wang and B'Elanna wasn't because she doesn't.

I would have enjoyed seeing B'Elanna in command for an episode, and that was supposed to be that episode, especially because of her outburst in the pilot about what right janeway has to make decisionsfor her that effect if she lives or dies that it would have made a fine counter balance if referenced that her "orders" turn out to be just as questionable.

Was Kim captain of Voyager while he was collaborating with the Hirogen?

Was Kim Captain of Voyager when it was just him and the Doctor in Workforce but he still needed the Doctor to lead the way and hold his hand?