Dominion Borg

[Mr. Laser Beam]

A borg founder won't have the capability to shapeshift its cybernetic implants into existence

But it would be able to *hide* them under a 'Founder skin'.

And, even if the assimilated founder would have all the abilities of a free one, he would be far less dangerous than you seem to think - he won't even come close to "assimilating an entire world by himself".

How do you know?

Assuming a Borg Founder can do what a non-Borg Founder can do - imitate the appearance *and personality* of anyone it wishes - it could sneak up on people and assimilate them before they knew what hit them. No one would ever know that it's a drone, so they couldn't target it and wipe it out. (At least with normal Borg, they can't help but "announce" their presence, since it'd be obvious from just looking at them that they're Borg.) That sounds pretty dangerous to me.

 

[RoJoHen]

Hardly. Founders can change shape, but they're far from unstoppable.

On their own, yes. But a Founder *Borg* would be unstoppable. They would assimilate you before you would even know they are a Borg.

They won't have that many advantages when compared to a "solid" drone.

Remember, founders can't shapeshift into complex technology - we never saw Odo create a functional phaser or tricorder from his substance.
A borg founder won't have the capability to shapeshift its cybernetic implants into existence - meaning they are made from conventional matter - which will gretely encumber the drone.
This means that a drone founder's talents will be far more limited than a founder's, as far as shapeshifing goes.

And, even if the assimilated founder would have all the abilities of a free one, he would be far less dangerous than you seem to think - he won't even come close to "assimilating an entire world by himself".

See, in my head, assimilating a Founder would create a whole new type of Borg. I don't even necessarily see them having traditional cybernetic implants like the solid drones do. The cybernetic part of them would be the nanoprobes that fuse to their existing cells.

I think it's definitely possible that a single Borg Founder could destroy a planet. You wouldn't even know that it's there until a significant part of the population becomes infected with Borg nanoprobes, and even then you probably wouldn't be able to identify the Founder responsible.

 

[MikeS]

I know it's not "canon", but I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Mission Gamma #4: Lesser Evil yet. Read that novel for a bit of Borg assimilating Changelling action.

PS, I'll give you a clue, Changellings do not have cellular structures.

 

[RoJoHen]

I'm glad I stopped reading those books before I got to that point.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

A borg founder won't have the capability to shapeshift its cybernetic implants into existence

But it would be able to *hide* them under a 'Founder skin'.

And while there, these implants will impede the founder borg from the more "exotic" shape changes - he won't be able to turn into an eagle or a book. He'll always be roughly humanoid.

And, even if the assimilated founder would have all the abilities of a free one, he would be far less dangerous than you seem to think - he won't even come close to "assimilating an entire world by himself".

How do you know?

Assuming a Borg Founder can do what a non-Borg Founder can do - imitate the appearance *and personality* of anyone it wishes - it could sneak up on people and assimilate them before they knew what hit them. No one would ever know that it's a drone, so they couldn't target it and wipe it out. (At least with normal Borg, they can't help but "announce" their presence, since it'd be obvious from just looking at them that they're Borg.) That sounds pretty dangerous to me.

The founder borg would be linked to the hive mind - he won't imitate anyone's personality (such subtleties are NOT in the borg's nature); on the off chance that he does, that wouldn't even be close to enough to assimilate HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, MILLIONS, BILLIONS - they would figure out what's happening and neutralise the threat LONG before you can even talk of "assimilating a planet" (unless they're utter morons).
Much like a founder is not a strategic asset, a borg founder isn't.

On their own, yes. But a Founder *Borg* would be unstoppable. They would assimilate you before you would even know they are a Borg.

They won't have that many advantages when compared to a "solid" drone.

Remember, founders can't shapeshift into complex technology - we never saw Odo create a functional phaser or tricorder from his substance.
A borg founder won't have the capability to shapeshift its cybernetic implants into existence - meaning they are made from conventional matter - which will gretely encumber the drone.
This means that a drone founder's talents will be far more limited than a founder's, as far as shapeshifing goes.

And, even if the assimilated founder would have all the abilities of a free one, he would be far less dangerous than you seem to think - he won't even come close to "assimilating an entire world by himself".

See, in my head, assimilating a Founder would create a whole new type of Borg. I don't even necessarily see them having traditional cybernetic implants like the solid drones do. The cybernetic part of them would be the nanoprobes that fuse to their existing cells.

If the borg nanoprobes had the ability to double as implants, they wouldn't bother building implants in any assimilated species.
Since the first thing nanoprobes do is biuld implants (which then mind-control the subject by linking him to the hive mind), they can't double as implants - not in humanoids, not in founders.

I think it's definitely possible that a single Borg Founder could destroy a planet. You wouldn't even know that it's there until a significant part of the population becomes infected with Borg nanoprobes, and even then you probably wouldn't be able to identify the Founder responsible.

See above in this post.

 

[MikeS]

I enjoyed most of the relaunch.

 

[Neutral Zone]

Borg capabilities are great and almost unbeatable. Their central weakness is that they can only assimilate physical beings that can't be manipulated into another form or have powers that are beyond the norm, i.e Q Continuum and other life forms of that nature would leave the Borg standing.

 

[RoJoHen]

See, in my head, assimilating a Founder would create a whole new type of Borg. I don't even necessarily see them having traditional cybernetic implants like the solid drones do. The cybernetic part of them would be the nanoprobes that fuse to their existing cells.

If the borg nanoprobes had the ability to double as implants, they wouldn't bother building implants in any assimilated species.

They haven't had a reason to. The Borg adapt, and they're remarkably good at it, but they don't do it just because they feel like it. I believe, that with the power of billions of minds working in the hive, that the Borg could, somehow, find a way to make it work. The Borg are evolving in their own way, but species don't evolve unless nature provides a reason for them to do so.

The current nanoprobes don't allow it, fine. But whose to say they can't build different nanoprobes? Hell, until Voyager came along and told us, we didn't even know the Borg were using nanoprobes at all!

 

[ProtoAvatar]

See, in my head, assimilating a Founder would create a whole new type of Borg. I don't even necessarily see them having traditional cybernetic implants like the solid drones do. The cybernetic part of them would be the nanoprobes that fuse to their existing cells.

If the borg nanoprobes had the ability to double as implants, they wouldn't bother building implants in any assimilated species.
Since the first thing nanoprobes do is biuld implants (which then mind-control the subject by linking him to the hive mind), they can't double as implants - not in humanoids, not in founders.

They haven't had a reason to. The Borg adapt, and they're remarkably good at it, but they don't do it just because they feel like it. I believe, that with the power of billions of minds working in the hive, that the Borg could, somehow, find a way to make it work. The Borg are evolving in their own way, but species don't evolve unless nature provides a reason for them to do so.

The current nanoprobes don't allow it, fine. But whose to say they can't build different nanoprobes? Hell, until Voyager came along and told us, we didn't even know the Borg were using nanoprobes at all!

But the borg have compelling resons to assimilate using only nanobots:
Efficiency in assimilating a person - speedwise;
Robustness and redundancy of the assimilating mechanism; etc.

The borg develop new tech by adapting to something, not by thinking creatively; and, given that they haven't adopted nanotech-only implants in hundreds/thousands of years of assimilating species (despite their obvious advantages), that can only mean that they are having trouble adapting the tech (despite centuries of trial and error) or that the exotic disadvantages of such tech are enormous. That must be one of those technologies that are extremely hard to evolve.

If you really want, at best, you could say that the nanoprobes adapted to control on their own the mind of a changeling (without the other advantages borg implants offer).

 

[sex_of_nine]

I could see Rabbitooth doing a manip of a Borgified Jem Hadar, but a Borgified Founder? No.
I could see a Borg Queen or "Specialist" drone somehow using a kind of Forensic Science to interrogate/scan the memory engrams of a Founder that's been "contained" in a fluid-tight vat, & reinforced with containment fields.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The founder borg would be linked to the hive mind - he won't imitate anyone's personality (such subtleties are NOT in the borg's nature)

I think the Borg would adapt to *make* it their nature.

on the off chance that he does, that wouldn't even be close to enough to assimilate HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, MILLIONS, BILLIONS - they would figure out what's happening and neutralise the threat LONG before you can even talk of "assimilating a planet" (unless they're utter morons).

But as I said, since Founders cannot be detected by any known means, so a Founder Borg would also be undetectable.

Much like a founder is not a strategic asset

Explain.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The founder borg would be linked to the hive mind - he won't imitate anyone's personality (such subtleties are NOT in the borg's nature)

I think the Borg would adapt to *make* it their nature.

No, they won't.
The borg adapt their technology, NOT the way they think, their nature. In this aspect, they're the most rigid, unchanging species ever seen in star trek. For example - You may be able to convince a romulan to make peace, but NEVER a borg.

on the off chance that he does, that wouldn't even be close to enough to assimilate HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, MILLIONS, BILLIONS - they would figure out what's happening and neutralise the threat LONG before you can even talk of "assimilating a planet" (unless they're utter morons).

But as I said, since Founders cannot be detected by any known means, so a Founder Borg would also be undetectable.

Founders don't have borg implants. Borg founders have them, which make them detectable.
And even founders need to became visible to make their move - DS9 established that a wide range of anti-founder measures were installed and, considering that the dominion (unlike the federation) had no intelligence coup during the war, were effective.

Much like a founder is not a strategic asset

Explain.

Isn't it obvious?
A founder can't conquer a planet on his own - this makes him "NOT a strategic asset".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Founders don't have borg implants. Borg founders have them, which make them detectable.

Unless the process of hiding their implants (within the Founder 'goo') can make those implants undetectable.

DS9 established that a wide range of anti-founder measures were installed and, considering that the dominion (unlike the federation) had no intelligence coup during the war, were effective.

Actually, there's no proof that any of those 'anti-founder measures' really worked.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Founders don't have borg implants. Borg founders have them, which make them detectable.

Unless the process of hiding their implants (within the Founder 'goo') can make those implants undetectable.

Founders only change shape. They can't cloack. Any tricorder will detect the borg implants hidden in, for example, a chair - and that's assuming that the borg founder CAN turn into a chair, encumbered as he is by all those borg implants (which must, at all times, function, controlling the founder).

DS9 established that a wide range of anti-founder measures were installed and, considering that the dominion (unlike the federation) had no intelligence coup during the war, were effective.

Actually, there's no proof that any of those 'anti-founder measures' really worked.

No direct proof, prehaps - meaning no episode dealt with a captured/killed founder.
There are indirect proofs, though - such as the fact that the Federation managed to score several intelligence victories against the dominion throughout the war (finding the tetracell-white center, the sensor hub, bringing the romulans into the war, S31 managing to keep hidden the cure to their virus) and the dominion didn't reciprocate - or did so very timidly (knowing that the federation adapted to the breen weapon).

One thing is certain - founder espionage/sabotage had no decisive effect during the war.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Founders only change shape. They can't cloack. Any tricorder will detect the borg implants hidden in, for example, a chair - and that's assuming that the borg founder CAN turn into a chair, encumbered as he is by all those borg implants (which must, at all times, function, controlling the founder).

Two things:

1) How do you know a tricorder could detect Borg implants hidden inside a Founder?

2) Even if they could, it might be too late. By the time anyone thought to scan (this is assuming it's not common knowledge that the Borg had assimilated a Founder), it would be too late. Until somebody happened to scan for it, a single Founder drone, properly disguised, could do a whole lot of assimilating without anyone even knowing it was there.

One thing is certain - founder espionage/sabotage had no decisive effect during the war.

What about those four Founders that were in disguise on Earth? They surely did a fair amount of damage themselves - every moment they were 'undercover' put the whole Federation at risk. And we never did find out what happened to them, did we? For all we know, they didn't even reveal themselves after the war was over - they might have disobeyed the Founder leader's order to surrender.

 

[Kaziarl]

I think the Borg would adapt to *make* it their nature.

I doubt it. If the borg focused on individual strengths of the races they assimilate, why haven't they before? With sufficient augmentation via implants and probes, one would think they could say... amplify the natural abilities of a betazed to control the crews of opposing ships and make them "willingly" lower their shields.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But Betazoids can't *control* minds, only read them.

 

[Kaziarl]

^Not control, no. Hence the world amplify, which means increase, make stronger, add strength to.

We do know that a betazoid can influence others. Hell, even the Vulcans can do that much, and thats when suffering from an illness.

And yet never has the borg tapped into this possible gold mine, it would make assimilation much more efficient. They wouldn't have to fire a shot.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But the concept of mind control is basically an offensive weapon. Everyone will know that the Borg are doing it (I'd wager that not everyone on a given ship's crew would be equally susceptible to mind control, so some of them would be wise to it). The greatest weapon for the Borg would be to get ahold of a Founder so they could operate in complete and total stealth, absolutely undetectable - until it's too late.

 

[Kaziarl]

Memory Alpha says a Borg Cube contains upwards of 129,000 drones. If a hand full of the crew on the opposing ship could resist the collective mental weight of that many drones, how quickly could they react before they were overrun by numbers?

imho, the only way the founder drone would be any more useful then any other drone would be if they were allowed to keep their individuality, otherwise they walk around like zombies. I doubt the collective would allow them to keep any semblence of their individuality for any reason save for the whole "liason" aspect of Locutus.