Why make Paris a lieutenant?

[Red Ranger]

You know, VOY got all the ranks kind of messed up, perhaps in an attempt to make their ranks different from the other shows. If I were the series showrunner/creator, I would've given most of the regular cast higher ranks.

For example, Tom started out as a full lt., then demoted to lt., j.g., and even busted down to ens. briefly before being bumped back up one grade. Hell, B'Elanna was a lt., j.g., despite the fact Carey was a full lt. Since Tom (as chief helmsman) and B'Elanna (as chief engineer) held top positions on the ship, they should've been full lieutenants.

Tuvok's rank made no sense, given his experience in Starfleet. He should've been a lt. cmdr. from the get-go, not have lt. cmdr. pips but be a lt., then have lt. pips and the actual rank, then finally get promoted to lt. cmdr. with the right number of ranks -- rather confusing, no?

I would've made Chakotay a full cmdr. to acknowledge his experience, as well, despite the fact Janeway's previous first officer was a lt. cmdr. (That was probably due to the size of the crew complement).

And poor Harry? He would've been kicked up to lt., j.g. by the third season, and full lt. by the sixth, to indicate his experience and taking the initiative to command the late shift.

As for the Doctor, perhaps he was considered a civilian doctor and not Starfleet, like Phlox from ENT, despite his Starfleet uniform. Janeway should've given him a brevet rank like the Maquis.

Hell, given ths size of the ship, Janeway probably should've held commader rank, not captain, with the title of captain, of course. (Same for Ransom of the Equinox). I guess the creators didn't want any confusion for regular folks who don't know the distinction -- that didn't stop DSN from making Sisko a commander first, though.

RR

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was the right thing to do, making Ben a Commander, but at some point some viewed it as a mistake, as if he was "less than" the rest of the leading characters.

but then he had to set himself apart from Picard and Kirk, but it was nice leaving hiim with somewhere to grow... I wonder if they had a planned timetable on Ben's promotion track from th get go?

 

[Kai Winn]

paris is a bridge or command officer, i reckon they must outrank the specialty officers like in the boiler room or science labs because they need to have the big picture in mind. there were a couple of lt. off the bridge on voyager, it's necessary that at least one person apart from the captain, first officer, and security chief outranks them. kim should have been promoted when paris got reduced. tng had an episode where the utterly incompetent troi took command of the bridge, and did some guesswork of what to do next, just tell me what she earned her rank for.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Funnily enough, Janeway originally made Paris a senior Lieutenant

VOY got all the ranks kind of messed up ... For example, Tom started out as a full lt., then demoted to lt., j.g., and even busted down to ens.

The show runners or whatever you call the detail people on a tv show DID screw up the ranks in the first season. I think it was half way through season 1 before they realized they had Lt Tuvok with Lt Commander pips and Lt jg Paris with 1st Lt pips and changed them on the spot. So technically, Tom wasn't demoted by Janeway in season 1, but by the tv show "detail" person. (Or lack of detail?)

Regarding rank at all, I agree with the camp that thinks Janeway had to give some authority besides "dept chief" to the Maquis being "assimilated" into the Voyager crew, and she "distinguished" that rank by allowing them to wear "Maquis" rank pins rather than Starfleet ones. She couldn't accord that "Maquis" honor to Paris, since he technically wasn't "in" the Maquis when they were catapulted into the DQ. In fact, he was assisting Starfleet in tracking the Maquis, and therefore was a "Traitor" to the Maquis rank as Chakotay accused him when they first met on Janeway's bridge.

 

[Tomalak]

the full combined crew was really struggling with keeping the ship together after a couple of years.

Were they? I don't think there's any evidence of this in the programme. Voyager was as good as new at the start of each episode. They more or less stop mentioning supply shortages and replicator rations, and don't ever seem to have major problems.

 

[Kai Winn]

well, voyager was shot at more often in each season than the enterprise in seven of them of tng, and while the galaxy class is a match for the competition in the alpha quadrant, voyager frequently encountered more powerful enemies. no overhaul in a federation spacedock, either. however, how did they replace the torpedos? in the first season, kate was always reluctant to use them.

 

[Triskelion]

Perhaps they put their own production systems into place. They would have had the ability to make them. Just replicate the parts and inject some matter/antimatter. Heck they could build their own shuttles.

Can anyone explain the difference between a LT Junior Grade and a full LT? If you took somebody like Kim, with extra experience, couldn't you just bump him up to a full LT?

And could someone explain the need for a LT CMDR? Is their function command or not? They are addressed as "Commander", are they not?

 

[Lynx]

The difference between a LT JuniorGrade and a full Lieutenant? Well the LT JuniorGrade has one gold and one black pip and the full Liutenant has two gold pips.

 

[Delta1]

Can anyone explain the difference between a LT Junior Grade and a full LT?

One grade.

If you took somebody like Kim, with extra experience, couldn't you just bump him up to a full LT?

You'd have to check the Starfleet personnel regulations. Given Janeway's propensity to hand out promotions without orders from any central authority, yes, she could.

And could someone explain the need for a LT CMDR?

Promoting O3s directly to O5 would just be silly.

Is their function command or not?

Rank is not a function. Any line officer can exercise command if appointed to a commanding office. If you start killing people off, temporary command can devolve all the way down to an enlisted person.

They are addressed as "Commander", are they not?

Yes. But don't let the literal meaning of ranks color your perception of their modern meaning. An ensign does not carry a flag around. A lieutenant does not necessarily hold (tenant) the place of (lieu) the captain. And a commander could be a staff officer.

 

[Triskelion]

Can anyone explain the difference between a LT Junior Grade and a full LT?

One grade.

If you took somebody like Kim, with extra experience, couldn't you just bump him up to a full LT?

You'd have to check the Starfleet personnel regulations. Given Janeway's propensity to hand out promotions without orders from any central authority, yes, she could.

Promoting O3s directly to O5 would just be silly.

Is their function command or not?

Rank is not a function. Any line officer can exercise command if appointed to a commanding office. If you start killing people off, temporary command can devolve all the way down to an enlisted person.

They are addressed as "Commander", are they not?

Yes. But don't let the literal meaning of ranks color your perception of their modern meaning. An ensign does not carry a flag around. A lieutenant does not necessarily hold (tenant) the place of (lieu) the captain. And a commander could be a staff officer.

I appreciate your explanations. I was hoping for more understanding of the reasoning behind the grades vis-a-vis ship duty or career development. Rather than the vagaries of field promotion or the use of grades. I'm still unclear why there is a need for an LTJG or LT CMDR on a Federation starship. It's not as if salary is an issue. Are there any clear differences in responsibility?

 

[StarshipDefiant]

As far as the rank grades go, it's mostly taken from the modern navies, in particular the US Navy. Going from highest to lowest, the ranks were as such (for commissioned officers)

Captain
Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Ensign

Basically, the LT, J.G. and LT. Cmdr are just another grade, a rank to climb through and create a hierarchy within Starfleet's numbers. Lieutenants and Lieutenant Commanders are often seen as department heads and/or support within the departments or certain watches. Commander's can either be in command outright, be an XO or a department head, and a Captian generally is in Command of a starship, but that depends on the career track (Scott for example, a Captain and a Chief Engineer).

Hope that helps, as for the peoples ranks? URG... how hard could it have been to make sure the costumes matched the intended output? Seriously, especially when there were people on hand, that this was their job.

 

[Tomalak]

Lieutenant, junior grade is such a terrible phrase. Why couldn't they use sub-lieutenant, or second lieutenant or something?

Poor effort Starfleet.

 

[Timo]

Most military terminology sounds pretty silly. Vice Admiral? REAR Admiral?

"Sub-lieutenant" sounds quite substandard...

Scott for example, a Captain and a Chief Engineer

Was he? In ST2, he was still a Commander. In ST3, he became Captain, but the title of his job was Captain of Engineering rather than Chief Engineer; his job description aboard the experimental Excelsior was unknown. In ST4, he was a fugitive. In ST5, he was part of an impromptu-sounding skeleton crew. In ST6, he was a near-retiree apparently personally hand-picked by Spock to do a favor.

We have poor idea of division colors after TMP, because ST2 had to introduce a cadet color and ended up stealing that from Engineering. No good replacement color ever emerged for Engineering, and Scotty ended up wearing the same yellow as e.g. Helm before going for Command white. His division in ST2 may have been Engineering, but it may equally well have been Training...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Most military terminology sounds pretty silly. Vice Admiral? REAR Admiral?

Is that an offer?

 

[kes7]

Most military terminology sounds pretty silly. Vice Admiral? REAR Admiral?

Is that an offer?

Get a room, you two.

 

[Cicero]

Most military terminology sounds pretty silly. Vice Admiral? REAR Admiral

Admiral: Admiral is a corruption of the Old French Amiral, which was itself a corruption of the Arabic Amir-ar-rahl, "chief of the transport", from Amir, Arabic for "leader"

Vice Admiral: Vice is Latin for "in place of"; thus, a Vice Admiral is an officer who acts in place of the commanding Admiral, like the Vice President is to the President. Lieutenant general has similar etymology, from French rather than Latin.

Rear Admiral: Age-of-Sail squadrons were generally separated into three divisions, the rearmost of which was typically commanded by the most junior admiral; thus, a Rear Admiral was one who commanded the rear division of a squadron. The army equivalent, Major General, was originally termed "Sergeant-Major General"; the rank of Major itself is also short for Sergeant-Major, which ultimately became a senior enlisted grade.

 

[kimc]

Given Janeway's propensity to hand out promotions without orders from any central authority, yes, she could.

Did any of the captain's need to clear promotions thru a central authority? I don't recall that being mentioned in any of the Treks...

 

[Delta1]

Given Janeway's propensity to hand out promotions without orders from any central authority, yes, she could.

Did any of the captain's need to clear promotions thru a central authority? I don't recall that being mentioned in any of the Treks...

Why would it have been? The flow of paperwork between a ship or outpost and Starfleet Command wouldn't have been very good drama. Unless a writer wanted to tell a story about Starfleet bureaucracy, there would be no reason to even mention it. All we've see is the unit recommendation and appointment, not the approval process.

 

[Delta1]

I appreciate your explanations. I was hoping for more understanding of the reasoning behind the grades vis-a-vis ship duty or career development. Rather than the vagaries of field promotion or the use of grades. I'm still unclear why there is a need for an LTJG or LT CMDR on a Federation starship.

Let's turn that question around. Starfleet uses a naval chain of command, including a rank structure that has existed for centuries. Why should Starfleet have changed that? There is a clear need for gradations within a hierarchy, and a proven system of graduated ranks already exists. We could imagine a different structure with fewer ranks, but Roddenberry wanted to use naval ranks.

It's not as if salary is an issue. Are there any clear differences in responsibility?

There's an extra pip that must be polished.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Certain jobs require certain ranks.

Paris as chief helmsman is a division head. Which means he has a large staff of pilots who have regular shifts as well as tourists which just want to have shift for kicks. I recall a novel where they let McCoy have a go at driving the "original" Enterprise because it seemed like a lazy day. but Tom has to Yell at his staff and dictate to them what to do and when, and doll out punishment and promotion by tattling endless reports to the XO.

It's an administerial position which requires the presence of underlings

Here's the rub.

When Tom got Demoted, someone else took over as Section head, and that person despite doing all the paper work decided to let Tom still do the lion share of the piloting and talking at the big table and then when Tom got his rank back just humbly stepped aside relinquishing their job and all it's perks...

Remember how Decker got demoted to Lt Commander when Kirk stole his command in the Motionless picture?

Okay, here's one for you.

If Chalotay and Tuvok are Lt Commander's then what was Commander Bartlett doing on Voyager before he died?