Did the Klingons ever apologise....
- Thread starter EJA
- Start date
Also, what did he do wrong? It's not as if Klingons have ever shied away from taking UFP lives or firing at UFP ships. Even during the Organian "peace", they did their damnedest to blow up Kirk's ship in "Elaan of Troyius" or to shoot him in "Friday's Child", or to poison UFP grain and probably UFP citizens in "Trouble with Tribbles". That's SOP for the Klingon Empire - there's nothing wrong with it, according to their honor code.
Kruge was, if anything, acting according to the Empire's explicit wishes and policies. He was exercising his right to roam in space (even if the Feds tried to limit that right by erecting all sorts of silly "borders") and observed an atrocity in progress - the "testing of a weapon of mass destruction" aimed against the Klingon Empire. He disrupted that process by terminating the criminals conducting the experiment, or at least by attempting to. At least one prominent criminal was left at large, namely Admiral Kirk, and Klingon policies from there on reflected this fact: unless Kirk was extradited for execution, a state of war would exist between the Empire and the UFP.
Why should the Klingons backtrack from their well-established position at any point? They didn't crave the UFP's approval, and indeed were portrayed as adversarial even in the TNG era, despite supposedly being "allies". And apparently the Feds didn't have the guts to insist that the Empire apologize or otherwise soften its views.
Timo Saloniemi
Kruge was, if anything, acting according to the Empire's explicit wishes and policies. He was exercising his right to roam in space (even if the Feds tried to limit that right by erecting all sorts of silly "borders") and observed an atrocity in progress - the "testing of a weapon of mass destruction" aimed against the Klingon Empire. He disrupted that process by terminating the criminals conducting the experiment, or at least by attempting to. At least one prominent criminal was left at large, namely Admiral Kirk, and Klingon policies from there on reflected this fact: unless Kirk was extradited for execution, a state of war would exist between the Empire and the UFP.
Why should the Klingons backtrack from their well-established position at any point? They didn't crave the UFP's approval, and indeed were portrayed as adversarial even in the TNG era, despite supposedly being "allies". And apparently the Feds didn't have the guts to insist that the Empire apologize or otherwise soften its views.
Timo Saloniemi
Genesis was never intended as a weapon of mass destruction, it was created to benefit galactic society. None of the people involved in it bore any ill will towards the Klingons or any other peoples. Listen to Sarek's speech to the Klingon ambassador in TVH; he was perfectly right in his condemnation of the Klingons' actions in the Genesis incident. What makes it even worse is that the Klingons then told blatant lies and made Kirk out to be the aggressor, something a truly honourable Klingon would find disgusting. If they cannot find it in their hearts to admit that they have done wrong, then according to their own customs they have no right to live.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Federation propaganda. Genesis was not a weapon of mass destruction? It could destroy a planet in seconds! It wasn't going to be used against klingons? Prove it!
Also - exactly what in their honor code prohibits killing during battle? The klingons are encouraged to amass as high a body count as possible in "honorable combat" AKA any battle whatsoever.
EJA, the klingons are NOT nice people.
They're agressive imperialists with a hunger for bloodshed.
You expect such people to apologize for killing a few humans? Good luck with that!
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Klingons normally don't take hostages, because that is the strategy of a coward. Kruge was pretty much a Klingon without honor. 
So were his crewmembers. Remember, one Klingon tried to stab Saavik from behind. There's no honor in stabbing an unarmed woman in the back.
So were his crewmembers. Remember, one Klingon tried to stab Saavik from behind. There's no honor in stabbing an unarmed woman in the back. 
EJA you have to keep in mind that 'Honor' wasn't introduced into the Klingon way of being until TNG. Prior to that, throughout TOS and all of the TOS movies, they had alway been portrayed as brutal, imperialistic, manipulative, and treacherous.
As far as Genesis goes, true, the UFP never had any ill intent (that we know of) for Genesis (although I'm sure there are a few in the Section 31 camp that think otherwise). However, the Klingons were portayed completely within established character in believing that planetwide terraforming was just a cover for building the most powerful weapon ever conceived. After seeing such an awesome display of power, of course the Klingons of TOS would see it as the biggest threat ever presented to the Empire and lable it as criminal.
Now to honor. Why was there such a noticable shift in how the Klingons acted between TOS and TNG? The real reason is, TPTB kind of did a 'swap' of the Klingons and Romulans between the series. In TOS the Romulans were modeled after the honor bound and mysterious Chinese, where as the Klingons were modeled after the devious and threatening USSR. I'm not sure if the decision to flip the two race's character was made due to the introduction of Worf, but I'm sure someone around here has that answer.
An on screen, in world reason for the change was never done that I'm aware of, and I've seen every episode of Trek ever produced. So if it was addressed, I'm really starting to slip. But my non-canon thoughts about it are that shortly after the events of TUC, a resurgesnce of the teachings of Kahless started to sweep the Empire so that by the time of TNG, Klingons were once again bound by honor. While not canon, and just one possibility, it does lend itself nicely to the idea that not all Klingons gave themselve fully to live by the Klingon Code of Honor. It would certainly go a long way in explaining why the Duras family was able to be so devious. Perhaps theirs was a family that gave the appearance of following the teachings of Kahless, but in secret, they alway remained true to the ways of the TOS Klingons.
As far as Genesis goes, true, the UFP never had any ill intent (that we know of) for Genesis (although I'm sure there are a few in the Section 31 camp that think otherwise). However, the Klingons were portayed completely within established character in believing that planetwide terraforming was just a cover for building the most powerful weapon ever conceived. After seeing such an awesome display of power, of course the Klingons of TOS would see it as the biggest threat ever presented to the Empire and lable it as criminal.
Now to honor. Why was there such a noticable shift in how the Klingons acted between TOS and TNG? The real reason is, TPTB kind of did a 'swap' of the Klingons and Romulans between the series. In TOS the Romulans were modeled after the honor bound and mysterious Chinese, where as the Klingons were modeled after the devious and threatening USSR. I'm not sure if the decision to flip the two race's character was made due to the introduction of Worf, but I'm sure someone around here has that answer.
An on screen, in world reason for the change was never done that I'm aware of, and I've seen every episode of Trek ever produced. So if it was addressed, I'm really starting to slip. But my non-canon thoughts about it are that shortly after the events of TUC, a resurgesnce of the teachings of Kahless started to sweep the Empire so that by the time of TNG, Klingons were once again bound by honor. While not canon, and just one possibility, it does lend itself nicely to the idea that not all Klingons gave themselve fully to live by the Klingon Code of Honor. It would certainly go a long way in explaining why the Duras family was able to be so devious. Perhaps theirs was a family that gave the appearance of following the teachings of Kahless, but in secret, they alway remained true to the ways of the TOS Klingons.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Klingons normally don't take hostages, because that is the strategy of a coward. Kruge was pretty much a Klingon without honor.
Klingons don't take hostages because they're itching to kill any captured opponents.
Klingon honor?
In DS9 Way of the Warrior, it's established that a standard klingon tactic is to cloak their ships near damaged/destroyed enemy ships and wait for rescue/medical ships to arrive, in order to blow them out of the sky.
Cowardly? Not according to Worf (maybe the only klingon seen on-screen with a constant/consistent honor code). Why? Because - according to Worf - "Nothing is more honorable than victory".
There's no honor in stabbing an unarmed woman in the back.
Perhaps not - but it's the smart thing to do, when the woman is three times stronger than you.
Klingons wouldn't have a honor code that stops them from winning battles. Where would the sense be in that? Of course they are allowed to pull dirty tricks on their enemies. If it impinges on their ideas of honor too much, they can always resort to saying that the enemy is without honor by default and thus deserves everything he or she gets...
Klingon honor code would have to be built so that it serves the Klingons themselves. And from what we see, it does. Klingons advance in rank by killing their superiors, yet no ship has been shown becoming a bloody battlefield right after leaving the pier. The honor code regulates this as such valid and good mechanism of rank advancement, defining who can challenge whom and on what basis. Also, Klingons like to be violent, but they aren't constantly fighting "real" enemies. They need some sort of a code to allow them to interact with each other despite the violent urges, and that's where Kahlessian teachings come in. Whenever there's a "real" enemy, the code can be safely ignored because it doesn't further the Klingon cause. But whenever there's peace, truce or other such crisis situation, Klingons go hyper-honorable in order not to rip each other apart.
Kruge would be relatively free to act because he was fighting true enemies. Anything happening between Kruge and Maltz and the rest of the Klingon crew would still be subject to the familiar honor codes, so we see Kruge kill incompetents for disciplinary reasons, Maltz opt for suicide rather than collaboration, and so forth.
Timo Saloniemi
Vulcan women are three times stronger than Klingon males?
Well, we have been told that Vulcans are three times stronger than humans. We have never really been told, shown or otherwise tipped off that Klingons would be stronger than humans. And we have not been told that gender would matter, either.
Perhaps Saavik would be a tad weaker than Stonn or Tuvok. That'd still probably be twice as strong as Kruge's goons, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps Saavik would be a tad weaker than Stonn or Tuvok. That'd still probably be twice as strong as Kruge's goons, though.
Timo Saloniemi
But wasn't the concept of Klingon honour as we know it an invention of TNG? I can't remember Klingons mention honour much during TOS so I always assumed it was invented for TNG to justify why the Federation had an alliance with these guys. In TOS they were just a bunch of chaotic space orcs; hardly an ideal ally.
Dunno - Kor in "Errand of Mercy" seemed to do all the usual honor things, respecting Kirk as a "worthy adversary" instead of just executing him outright and so forth. Kang was a perfect example of TNG-style Klingon honor, too.
In contrast, the TOS Romulans seemed like a bunch of no-good scheming bastards all, which makes one wonder where the idea arose that Romulan and Klingon honor concepts "switched places" between TOS and TNG. Is that just because of the character of Mark Lenard's Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror"? The same guy who performed a dastardly sneak attack in an invisible ship, and then hid a nuclear bomb in a debris cloud?
Timo Saloniemi
In contrast, the TOS Romulans seemed like a bunch of no-good scheming bastards all, which makes one wonder where the idea arose that Romulan and Klingon honor concepts "switched places" between TOS and TNG. Is that just because of the character of Mark Lenard's Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror"? The same guy who performed a dastardly sneak attack in an invisible ship, and then hid a nuclear bomb in a debris cloud?
Timo Saloniemi
Amen, Timo. Amen, and good night.
One open plot point (no doubt of many): Genesis, even though declared unsuccessful, is still a spectacular weapon of mass destruction. In fact, that's ALL it is by the time they end STIII: a great way to destabilize the biosphere of a whole planet with an itsy-bitsy torpedo. The Klingon's are absolutely right to call it that and if somehow WMD's are an issue (there do seem to be many different types), call the Feds on it.
In "Clues," Worf tells Picard that Data is one of the "very few" crew members who would posses the speed and strength necessary to break his arm. Since he mentioned both speed and strength, and not just speed, that would seem to imply that strength greater than a normal human's would be necessary to be successful in a physical confrontation with a Klingon.
Or with Worf, more specifically?
Also, just because one needs strength to break a Klingon arm doesn't mean Klingons would be particularly strong. They just have tough bones. And generally tough bodies, as indicated in several episodes. Evidence of Klingon muscles being especially capable in tasks such as lifting, bending or wrestling is still lacking.
Timo Saloniemi
Also, just because one needs strength to break a Klingon arm doesn't mean Klingons would be particularly strong. They just have tough bones. And generally tough bodies, as indicated in several episodes. Evidence of Klingon muscles being especially capable in tasks such as lifting, bending or wrestling is still lacking.
Timo Saloniemi
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
The klingons have been heralded as warriors able to hold their own against anybody, but we've repeatedly seen humans taking them down in hand to hand combat.
At first sight, this is inconsistent.
However, today, we have humans able to break their opponents' neck without breaking a sweat a nd humans who can barely support their body weight.
This could apply to klingons, too.
Worf is the peak of klingon martial prowess and, as such, is VERY hard to defeat by a human. However, the average klingon soldier can be and was defeated by humans, bajorans, etc.
At first sight, this is inconsistent.
However, today, we have humans able to break their opponents' neck without breaking a sweat a nd humans who can barely support their body weight.
This could apply to klingons, too.
Worf is the peak of klingon martial prowess and, as such, is VERY hard to defeat by a human. However, the average klingon soldier can be and was defeated by humans, bajorans, etc.
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