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22-year-old Amanda Knox found guilty

Alpha Romeo--are you a lawyer by any chance? Sounds like it, but I'm just curious. If you are, I think reminding everyone of the proper rules of admissible evidence would be a good idea to reinforce your point.

Jack Frost--not only do you have the fact that the tabloids were savaging her and that the jury was not sequestered from this influence, but the way the crowd reacted when she was convicted (rather like a thumbs-down at a gladiatorial match) makes it suspect as well. And it is a well-known fact that Americans ARE despised overseas, at least by the majorities, in many countries. While we can't 100% prove anti-American bias was at the root of the verdict, the multiple miscarriages of justice throughout the course of the trial render the entire proceedings suspect, that such influences could easily have gotten in.

Raffaele Sollecito, an Italian citizen, got the exact same treatment and he too was sentenced to 25 years in prison. So was there an Anti-Italian bias in rendering the decision as well?

That said, bringing him down was key to bringing Knox down as well. Who's to say there wasn't an ulterior motive, tied to the Knox trial? Can we indeed prove the two cases were taken separately?

Now, if the evidence is stronger in Sollecito's case, then HIS conviction may make more sense. However, if the trial was conducted improperly, that STILL cannot be tolerated.
 
The beef is, Shameless, is that there was NO DNA of hers or Raffael's at the crime scene. She had no access to an interpreter, the jury wasn't given any real evidence and they were not sequestered. So yes, I agree that Italy's judicial system IS a joke. The jury didn't decide on the facts of the case. They convicted based on tabloid journalism.
I'm not privy to all details of the case. Actually, it doesn't interest me much. But even if this particular case was not so clear cut, do you think it's enough to bad-mouth all the system? I guess you never have questionable ruling in the American system, because if you have, I would be forced to call your system a joke, too.

Plus there is also reason to suspect that there was bias due to the national origin of the defendant...in other words, that this may be anti-American sentiment made manifest. It seemed a foregone conclusion from the very beginning, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof. Given that, and the other denials of basic rights to the defendant, it should be no wonder that this angers a good many Americans and that we feel about it the same way we would feel about an Iranian mock trial rather than a verdict reached by an American or British court.
Yeah, because Italy is not a civilized western European country, but a Middle-East brutal dictatorship. But I guess only English speaking countries are civilized. If there is something like a nationalist bias, is all in the words of the American media: here in Italy no one ever commented over the fact that Amanda Knox was an US citizen.

In the immortal words of Chief Archon Makbar, "The verdict is guilty. The sentence is death. Let the trial begin!"
Geez. Funny how someone that has an online fantasy of being a Cardassian is fast and loose to make comparison between a sci-fi fascist government and another country's legal system. In other words, be thankful this is not TNZ.

Choose your sarcasm. My opinion is an informed one. Their system is a joke.
And, in your informed opinion, how is Italy's system different from any other European country?

but the way the crowd reacted when she was convicted (rather like a thumbs-down at a gladiatorial match)
Oh, that's cute. I guess you shouldn't trust those swarthy foreigners, don't you agree? :rolleyes:

Edited to add: You may find it interesting to read back on the "Have you ever been on a trial jury?" thread, where one of the posters talks about being on a federal jury in a trial where Wal-Mart was the defendant, and more than one juror apparently talked seriously about the possibility of delivering a punitive guilty verdict against Wal-Mart, to hurt them, simply because they didn't like Wal-Mart... blah blah blah
Yeah, and this is the reason why here in Italy we don't have jury trial, but a quorum of popular and professional judges. Now, care to know what you are talking about before hitting the keyboard? :lol:

Jack Frost--not only do you have the fact that the tabloids were savaging her and that the jury was not sequestered from this influence, but the way the crowd reacted when she was convicted (rather like a thumbs-down at a gladiatorial match) makes it suspect as well. And it is a well-known fact that Americans ARE despised overseas, at least by the majorities, in many countries. While we can't 100% prove anti-American bias was at the root of the verdict, the multiple miscarriages of justice throughout the course of the trial render the entire proceedings suspect, that such influences could easily have gotten in.
Raffaele Sollecito, an Italian citizen, got the exact same treatment and he too was sentenced to 25 years in prison. So was there an Anti-Italian bias in rendering the decision as well?
Of course. Italians hates everybody, even themselves.
 
In the immortal words of Chief Archon Makbar, "The verdict is guilty. The sentence is death. Let the trial begin!"

You know why this is funny? Because Italy doesn't have the death penalty. But we Americans do. We loves our vengeance killing in the name of the law. Hell, in certain states we even execute the mentally handicapped!
 
I want to know more salacious details about the extreme sex play they were indulging in... :D
I seem to remember that all came out through some self-penned fiction she'd put online?

Really? I haven't followed the case at all. That's hilarious.
Yeah, some sort of rape thing and a controversial MySpace (?) profile. The media cast a few aspersions because of it, though I've no idea of the content.
 
And, in your informed opinion, how is Italy's system different from any other European country?

Well for one thing it obviously allows a jury or finder of fact to consider tainted evidence in the form of a bra that was sitting at a crime scene for months after. Or perhaps its the fact that character evidence is allowed to be admitted and considered by a finder of fact. In other words, as I've said, in my professional opinion your system is a joke.

Further, in the Great Brittain and in the United States, character evidence is inadmissible except in certain very rare circumstances. Here, it's obvious that it was considered. The "foxy Knoxy" thing surely carried forward and was considered by the fact finder. Again, your system is a joke.
 
Glad to see the trial is over,she is guilty .

Based on what exactly? The murder weapon? The Bra? The fact that she did cartwheels? The fact that they hadn't called the cops when they came with the cell phones?

Tainted evidence, circumstantial evidence all raises reasonable doubt.
 
And, in your informed opinion, how is Italy's system different from any other European country?
Well for one thing it obviously allows a jury or finder of fact to consider tainted evidence in the form of a bra that was sitting at a crime scene for months after.
A crime scene that was closed and sealed. And it was 6 weeks, not "months". I'm not an expert on DNA forensics. The evidence was ruled genuine, I have no reason to think otherwise.

Or perhaps its the fact that character evidence is allowed to be admitted and considered by a finder of fact. In other words, as I've said, in my professional opinion your system is a joke.
The tabloid media had a field day with her, I concur. I don't particularly like that either. However, it's not different from what it happens in UK or the US (Murdoch's papers come to mind). The fact that it was used against her in tribunal in just your supposition, tho.

Further, in the Great Brittain and in the United States, character evidence is inadmissible except in certain very rare circumstances. Here, it's obvious that it was considered. The "foxy Knoxy" thing surely carried forward and was considered by the fact finder. Again, your system is a joke.
"Obviously" as in "I think so because I've read that in MY tabloids". Again, the fact that character evidence was considered in court is just your supposition. If you have any particular insight into the debate chamber, I'll be happy to read it.
 
^ Yeah, but I have nothing better to do at the moment, so...
Iguana, your system is a joke and it's not just the Knox business. People are told of their rights, given interpreters so they understand what the heck is going on when they're arrested in the US. Amanda Knox didn't have access to an interpreter and right there, were she in the US and someone of another nationality or didn't speak English, that could be grounds for a mistrial. The Italian justice is now on trial and it's not just Amanda Knox's case that is coming up. Other people have had experiences and are telling.
 
^ Yeah, but I have nothing better to do at the moment, so...
Iguana, your system is a joke and it's not just the Knox business. People are told of their rights, given interpreters so they understand what the heck is going on when they're arrested in the US. Amanda Knox didn't have access to an interpreter and right there, were she in the US and someone of another nationality or didn't speak English, that could be grounds for a mistrial. The Italian justice is now on trial and it's not just Amanda Knox's case that is coming up. Other people have had experiences and are telling.
Yeah, I think I will put my unbound trust in your assessment of the facts here. I'm sure you got all your informations from some close review of the legal papers involved, and not from some tabloids columns or biased editorials like the (delightfully slanted) ones from Tim Egan cited upthread.

The Italian justice system is on trial? O rly? By whom? :lol:
 
^ Yeah, but I have nothing better to do at the moment, so...
Iguana, your system is a joke and it's not just the Knox business. People are told of their rights, given interpreters so they understand what the heck is going on when they're arrested in the US. Amanda Knox didn't have access to an interpreter and right there, were she in the US and someone of another nationality or didn't speak English, that could be grounds for a mistrial. The Italian justice is now on trial and it's not just Amanda Knox's case that is coming up. Other people have had experiences and are telling.
Yeah, I think I will put my unbound trust in your assessment of the facts here. I'm sure you got all your informations from some close review of the legal papers involved, and not from some tabloids columns or biased editorials like the (delightfully slanted) ones from Tim Egan cited upthread.

The Italian justice system is on trial? O rly? By whom? :lol:
The trial of public opinion. And I don't read tabloids.
 
Geez. Funny how someone that has an online fantasy of being a Cardassian is fast and loose to make comparison between a sci-fi fascist government and another country's legal system. In other words, be thankful this is not TNZ.

It's not fast-and-loose in the slightest when people are denied the right to understand the proceedings against them and rules of evidence are either nonexistent or ignored, to allow things in that should never have been evidence.

Now, does that mean the system is necessarily AS bad the Cardassian example? No, but any miscarriage of justice must be taken seriously.

If there's one thing being in my particular corner of the fandom makes you very aware of, it's making sure


Oh, that's cute. I guess you shouldn't trust those swarthy foreigners, don't you agree? :rolleyes:

I don't trust a judicial system that has demonstrated a pattern of abuses, nor do I trust when a media circus gets started around a case AND you have a jury that is not properly sequestered from said circus. And that latter is something I have major problems with in the States, too, so don't you dare claim racism.

Yeah, and this is the reason why here in Italy we don't have jury trial, but a quorum of popular and professional judges. Now, care to know what you are talking about before hitting the keyboard? :lol:

Ahh, interesting, so my parallel was actually CLOSER than I thought!
 
It's not fast-and-loose in the slightest when people are denied the right to understand the proceedings against them and rules of evidence are either nonexistent or ignored, to allow things in that should never have been evidence.
And you say that because you know it, or do you just assume that because some hack wrote it in a paper and Italians are untrustworthy so it must be true?

Oh, that's cute. I guess you shouldn't trust those swarthy foreigners, don't you agree? :rolleyes:
I don't trust a judicial system that has demonstrated a pattern of abuses, nor do I trust when a media circus gets started around a case AND you have a jury that is not properly sequestered from said circus. And that latter is something I have major problems with in the States, too, so don't you dare claim racism.
My claim was not of racism, but xenophobia. Those furriners are different, why should we trust them?

And pray, what "pattern of abuses"? Are you privy to informations about a string of judicial mistakes being carried out in Italian courts, or is it something you just made up to bump up your argument?

Yeah, and this is the reason why here in Italy we don't have jury trial, but a quorum of popular and professional judges. Now, care to know what you are talking about before hitting the keyboard? :lol:
Ahh, interesting, so my parallel was actually CLOSER than I thought!
Wait, what? The fact that we don't use the same jury trials system of the US immediately makes us a dictatorship?
 
What bugs the heck out of us is that your jury was allowed to decide based on "evidence" that had NOTHING to do with the actual evidence. NO DNA evidence that she was even there. The forensics are NOT there, Iguana.
 
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