Why would God send someone to hell over suicide?

[Amaris]

Which pills in your medicine cabinet are placebos?

None.

Does it change the fact that either way you tend to feel better after taking them?

I don't tend to feel better after taking placebos, and typically, neither does anyone else.

That's why they use placebos in the control group for drug trials.

My point is, when you believe you're experiencing something you think is real, there are times when you don't want to consider the idea that you might be mistaken.

J.

 

[Gepard]

[
I don't tend to feel better after taking placebos, and typically, neither does anyone else.

That's why they use placebos in the control group for drug trials.

So would that be why there's talk of beginning to use the Placebo effect in clinical treatment?

 

[6of9]

I think God has a Starfleet-like "Prime Directive" in the Hope that we'll see his intent, his light as a result of growth and setbacks, children learning why its bad idea to touch a hot stove element. I think, God is really hoping we'll see things that are right & wrong via their own merits, paralleling his own long term agenda & in certain cases allows suicides as a self-deterrent (via its' cross-cultural ripple effect,) to those left behind. Suicide is a harsh enough punishment in itself.

God loves us & cries with us when we fail ourselves and Him, but He also realizes it won't always be this way. He doesn't want to make growing up too easy for us. He wants us to learn all the necessary lessons we need to learn to feel on a very personal level, to come together as a united world of different peoples willing to work together as we confront bigger challenges in the warp-faring galaxy.

How many movies have we seen where God allows an immoral/selfish/gluttonous/closed-minded jerk to get nailed by anything from an errant golf-ball to the head to a heart attack during sex. Then sends the jerk an emissary to guide The Jerk through a montage of their life in order to get them to screw their heads on straight, get the whole point of the exercise, and try to get that wayward soul to "pay it forward"?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not always true that just because you want something, you're going to fall for the placebo effect. I wanted to believe phenylephrine would do something. If YOU were sneezing and sniffling and hacking and generally all-around miserable the way I was, you'd want relief, too. And FAST. But it doesn't seem to do anything at all, and I'm convinced it is no more effective than a placebo. So it's not like I turned my mind off because of how badly I wanted relief--didn't stop me from observing that this Sudafed PE stuff doesn't do crap.

(It SO sucks that I can't take normal Sudafed. I get ALL the "stop taking this immediately" warning signs it says on the box. So it's either suffer the cold symptoms and get at least some sleep, or take the Sudafed, get my nose clear, but be so wired that my heart's just thudding, I'm anxious as hell, and I can't sleep. Even in the day it doesn't feel good. On a side topic, is there anything that's not pseudephedrine or phenylephrine that actually DOES anything when you have a cold??????????)

 

[Amaris]

^ Technically, Coricidin HBP is an alternative, but I've found it's got some nasty side effects.

J.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Why should we? We've got as much right to talk about our beliefs as you do about yours.

I might believe in ghosts, serendipitous inspiration, or the idea that the universe lines up somehow, whatver. I can't demonstrate these things, however, so I keep them to myself. Policy is being made, and schools are bing infiltrated by unsubstatiated beliefs baszed ona morally questionable document written in the Bronze Age, and things therein are based on mere assertions. And I'm supposed to walk on eggshells, while people talk about this crap as if it just as real as the real issues that face us, all the while having to hold my tongue for fear of offending an entire gdemographic, one that seems to be so easily (and even willingly) offended because I don't believe like they do.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And I'm supposed to walk on eggshells, while people talk about this crap as if it just as real as the real issues that face us, all the while having to hold my tongue for fear of offending an entire gdemographic, one that seems to be so easily (and even willingly) offended because I don't believe like they do.

You are offended because I don't believe like *you* do. How is that any different? The fact that you would seek to prevent me from exercising my freedom of speech and religion would seem to be rather telling...

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

You can believe what you want, and I'll just continue to think that the beliefs are a little crazy. In any case you miss my point: I don't like the fact that policy, both written and unwritten, is being made based on these beliefs. The fact that Christianity has billions of followers doesn't make it any more truthful than tales of Zeus, but Christiantiy draws its legitimacy from its legions of followers. It started as a means of controlling and brainwashing the population, but the experiement succeeded well beyond anyone's imagination. Swallow the kool-aid if you want to, but don't take us down with you!

Natch!

 

[Chaos Descending]

My point is, when you believe you're experiencing something you think is real, there are times when you don't want to consider the idea that you might be mistaken.

J.

And later, when you "realize" that it "was not real", do you continue telling people that it was real?

No. Of course you don't.

So would that be why there's talk of beginning to use the Placebo effect in clinical treatment?

There is virtually no clinical distinction between a placebo and no treatment at all, with the exception of pain management.

"We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects"

"Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos."

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/344/21/1594

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

^ Technically, Coricidin HBP is an alternative, but I've found it's got some nasty side effects.

J.

I've already gone the "nasty side effects" route...I sure don't want to do it again.

And lemme tell ya something, guys...you ain't met a stigma until you try being a Christian that believes in science as it truly is. That is a razor-thin edge in this country, guys...talk about crap flying at you from all sides.

Then again, it's very pleasing to know there are those like Theodosius Dobzhansky and Francis S. Collins whose footsteps I follow. FSM, you'd better recognize at least one of the above...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I don't take cold medicines of any kind. No matter which one, they always make me sicker than the cold. I find it much less taxing to just deal with the cold and ride it out.

 

[Thestral]

I might believe in ghosts, serendipitous inspiration, or the idea that the universe lines up somehow, whatver. I can't demonstrate these things, however, so I keep them to myself. Policy is being made, and schools are bing infiltrated by unsubstatiated beliefs baszed ona morally questionable document written in the Bronze Age, and things therein are based on mere assertions. And I'm supposed to walk on eggshells, while people talk about this crap as if it just as real as the real issues that face us, all the while having to hold my tongue for fear of offending an entire gdemographic, one that seems to be so easily (and even willingly) offended because I don't believe like they do.

... You do realize that the trend of policies and schools is away from this "infiltration" as you term it, right? The "infiltration" was a fait accompli 100 years ago; education is fortunately (and I say that as a devout Christian) moving away from being tied so closely to the churches. But let's not forget the powerful influence religion played in education in this country's history.


There's been a lot of talk about Christians and Hell and I'd rather not put my two cents in because I'll just annoy both "sides."

But for the non-religious (and for the conservative religious too), what do you make of people like Dorothy Day, Leo Tolstoy, MLK Jr., Oscar Romero, Gustavo Guttierez, Desmond Tutu, Shane Claiborne, and the Evangelical Left?

 

[Amaris]

And later, when you "realize" that it "was not real", do you continue telling people that it was real?

No. Of course you don't.

True. So if someone asked me if Jesus was really the son of God, my answer would be "no". If someone asked me whether anything I thought was of God then would be so now, I would say "no", because I don't believe in any of it. It is no more real to me than Narnia.

I've already gone the "nasty side effects" route...I sure don't want to do it again.

Yeah, it will mess with your head.

And lemme tell ya something, guys...you ain't met a stigma until you try being a Christian that believes in science as it truly is. That is a razor-thin edge in this country, guys...talk about crap flying at you from all sides.

I can empathize.

Then again, it's very pleasing to know there are those like Theodosius Dobzhansky and Francis S. Collins whose footsteps I follow. FSM, you'd better recognize at least one of the above...

I hope he does, because I don't.

But for the non-religious (and for the conservative religious too), what do you make of people like Dorothy Day, Leo Tolstoy, MLK Jr., Oscar Romero, Gustavo Guttierez, Desmond Tutu, Shane Claiborne, and the Evangelical Left?

I hope they succeed in their endeavors. I really do.

J.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Francis Collins runs the genome the project, but it isn't his solely. That said, there are a lot of people whose work I can appreciate despite the fact that I don't agree wtih someof their other views. He obviously is able to compartmentalize his studies of the genome from his religious beliefs at least enough. If he didn't he'd face ridicule. Do you know how he became the Christian he is today? Well, just to summarize, he was biking or hiking in some jungle in som,e country somewhere and saw a beautiful, three-tiered waterfall, one that was probably quite a sight. But to him: three tiers, well that much mean it represnented the trinity. Wow I can certainly see that. That's rationality for you!

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

... and I thought the US was a secular state with freedom of belief and expression built in at its foundation. In the UK, the Church of England is the established religion, and we don't have a written constitution, but there sometimes seems to be greater tolerance for non-conformist thinking.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

It is supposed yto be a secular state, but far too often, it's been currupted by those whose beliefs are not rational or demonstrable.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Francis Collins runs the genome the project, but it isn't his solely. That said, there are a lot of people whose work I can appreciate despite the fact that I don't agree wtih someof their other views. He obviously is able to compartmentalize his studies of the genome from his religious beliefs at least enough.

Are you sure he compartmentalizes? I would say that at least for me, I see no divide and no opposition between the study of the material world and the study of the spiritual. Searching for truth is searching for truth, and one inherently can't degrade the other, in my mind.

BTW, what about Dobzhansky? I've been meaning to ask you for WEEKS. (BTW, in my opinion he's totally right in EVERY department where it counts. )

 

[Thestral]

But for the non-religious (and for the conservative religious too), what do you make of people like Dorothy Day, Leo Tolstoy, MLK Jr., Oscar Romero, Gustavo Guttierez, Desmond Tutu, Shane Claiborne, and the Evangelical Left?

I hope they succeed in their endeavors. I really do.

J.

They were once your endeavors too. In all my lurking and my recent posting, that was something I could hold on to.

 

[Amaris]

But for the non-religious (and for the conservative religious too), what do you make of people like Dorothy Day, Leo Tolstoy, MLK Jr., Oscar Romero, Gustavo Guttierez, Desmond Tutu, Shane Claiborne, and the Evangelical Left?

I hope they succeed in their endeavors. I really do.

J.

They were once your endeavors too. In all my lurking and my recent posting, that was something I could truly appreciate.

I will say this: While I no longer believe, I still want people to think and live freely, for everyone to love one another, and for humanity to push forward in peace. As long as no person harms another, I am happy to live next to them as their neighbor. My ethics haven't changed, only the way they're perceived. For those who love Jesus Christ, more power to you, and I hope you find your spiritual fulfillment. It is not for me, but that doesn't make you invalid or stupid, you'll never hear me call you dumb or ignorant for believing there is a God. There is no reason why people who do and do not believe cannot live together and work toward the same goals.

J.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

BTW, what about Dobzhansky? I've been meaning to ask you for WEEKS. (BTW, in my opinion he's totally right in EVERY department where it counts. )

Yeah nice, so he was relgious and evolutionist. So? Some people believe that God merely started the process, but the world still works as the result of natural cumulative processes that we can observe, measure, and demonstrate. I have less of a problem with such people, though I would ask them why they would add the god baggage save for the fact that, to them, they are answering a mystery with a bigger mystery instead of admitting that they "don't know."