Tuvix -- Moralilty vs Life

[Jbarney]

I'm disappointed that one of the reactions to this thread would be that the Janeway haters would have yet another chance to vent. Just to be clear, I wouldn't put myself in the Janeway hater category...but I saw little to like about the character. I often found her annoying.

That said, I think her actions in this episode are were "right". And I am amazed (perhaps not in this thread--yet) that so many people think her decision was the wrong one. For me it comes down to authority, and Janeway was in a position of authority to say that Tuvix's life was not more important than two lives. So, being in the position of authority, she made the decision for the individual....over the individual's right to chose......to bring Tuvok and Neelix back.

I thought it was awesome at the time and it is still one of the more thought provoking Voyager episodes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I believe Janeway's decision was the correct one.

Either two people (Tuvok and Neelix) die, or one person (Tuvix) dies. Janeway was correct in choosing the latter. When you know there's going to be some death, why not try to minimize it? Isn't it less tragic for one person, rather than two, to die? Especially since Tuvix was only alive because of a transporter malfunction? Tuvok and Neelix had a birthright, because they were born, just like any other living being. What right does Tuvix have to live?

I think that if Tuvok and Neelix were to be asked if they preferred being alive on their own (i.e. as separate beings), they would say that they were, i.e. they would prefer it to being essentially imprisoned within the body of Tuvix. Because that's exactly what they were.

To put it another way: If killing Tuvix is murder, then allowing him to live is also murder, since it would be the deaths of Tuvok and Neelix. And isn't it worse to kill two people rather than one?

 

[Unicron]

I agree with JustKate. The story isn't supposed to be easy, and I don't think Janeway ever had a "correct" choice.

 

[Klaitu]

Personally, I'm glad the episode turned out as it did, because the Tuvix character was much more annoying than Tuvok and Neelix by themselves.

Ethically, I don't really see any dilemma here. Kill one person to save two people, or kill two people to save one. Janeway's choice was ethically correct.

Was killing Tuvix morally correct? It depends on your morals, but I'd argue probably not. Tuvix was an accident, and nobody had an intent to kill Tuvok and Neelix, but there was an intent to kill Tuvix.

Since we're dealing with the creation and subsequent destruction of inconvienient people, I think the episode has an interesting context in light of the actual world phenomenon of abortion.

This episode could have been so much better if Tuvix wasn't so utterly, powerfully annoying.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

but there was an intent to kill Tuvix.

For the greater good, yes.

 

[Brit]

Since we're dealing with the creation and subsequent destruction of inconvienient people, I think the episode has an interesting context in light of the actual world phenomenon of abortion.

There has been and will be in the foreseeable future, inconvenient people. Trek has either addressed that subject (NG – “The Measure of a Man”) or gave us a glimpse of what could constitute such a person (Voyager – “Author, Author”). The one thing that has stuck out for me is that no one can actually prove sentience, or if you rather the worth of any being. You have to take someone’s word.

Abortion is not a phenomenon, but rather something that has existed for thousands of years. Women have the need to control their own bodies; it’s just that now they have a safe way to do so. The real phenomenon is that for the first time in the history of the world, upper body strength isn’t the first requirement to hold power, and those that do not have great upper body strength can choose for themselves. And yes in some areas the story of Tuvix could be construed as addressing the subject of abortion, I don’t think it is so much a question of destroying sentience because no one can prove where sentience begins or ends. The analogy comes from the willingness of others to override what the individual chooses to do with his or her own body.

Tuvix, had no body. He was an amalgamation of two other beings, beings who did have the right to choose. Because they were not in the position to vocalize that choice, Janeway had to decide for them. I don’t think this is as much about abortion as it is about someone with a multiple personality disorder. It is however, as good story tellers are apt to do, reversed. Instead of trying to incorporate the shattered pieces of one person’s personality, here we have the effort, to try to separate two individual and separate personalities. What sticks out to me is that the different personalities within someone with such a disorder also think that incorporating is a kind of death for them, just as Tuvix felt that separating him back into his original components would “kill” him.

In both cases nobody really dies, what is lost is the destructive part of either a shattered or an amalgamated personality. Tuvix said himself that they both lived on in him, if that is true then the opposite is true also, Tuvix lives on within both Tuvok and Neelix.

I think that a lot of people mess up when they think “Tuvix” is about bodies, I think it’s about personalities.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

but there was an intent to kill Tuvix.

For the greater good, yes.

The greater good would have been calculated by assuming that Tuvok + Neelix could contribute more to the mission than Tuvix?

Kim did the same thing when he saved Daniel Byrd assuming that Tom and he were more capable of getting the ship home rather than an unknown quantity.

That's nice, but we all know that Janeway couldn't make up her mind because she could see that either choice was the completely right thing to do, but Then Kes tipped the scales pleading she needed her boyfriend who she dumped a couple weeks later.

What about quality of life?

Tuvok had his space syphallis from Flashback, his sleeper programming from repression and his dementia from Endgame to share with his talaxian half, god knows how he'd get through Pon far with out killing everyone between him and the object of his affection in seaons 7. Hollowhores my ass.

Neelix? Apart from his little girl lung had no exisitng preconditions he might have inflicted on Tuvok, although one has to ask about the drop in the quality of his life after he dided and had to rely on Borg nanoprobes to survive like some sort of vampire who preys on borg... That was temporary right? Or was it ongoing and we just never saw him getting his weekly shot of nanoprobes to keep his heart ticking for the rest of his life every week? But he might not have died if he had been Tuvix.

Though it's certainly possibly that Neelix would have fractioned Tuvoks life expectancy to the point that he should already be dead since Tuvok was in excess of a hundred and if Talaxians are par with humans (From how kes talked) he wasn't expecting to make it past 70.

 

[Klaitu]

Abortion is not a phenomenon

A phenomenon is anything that can be observed with the bodily senses. To be clear, I didn't mean phenomenon as in "Michael Jackson is an international phenomenon".

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know what she meant.

But then I'm the last person to tell people to not be difficult.

I read a short story in an anthology some years back where parents had til their child were 21 to decide if they wanted to postnataly abort their kids for any such reason they could conjure.

Then I read another short story by harlen Ellison were kids upon turning 21 got to decide if they wanted to sue their parents for giving them a shitty child hood.

Kids.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

but there was an intent to kill Tuvix.

For the greater good, yes.

The greater good would have been calculated by assuming that Tuvok + Neelix could contribute more to the mission than Tuvix?

I don't mean that. I meant that the greater good would best be served by allowing TWO people to live rather than just ONE person. Either way, you know somebody is going to have to lose their life - that's the whole point of this episode.

In the end: It is less tragic, less painful, to say that ONE person must die rather than TWO.

Tuvix said himself that they both lived on in him, if that is true then the opposite is true also, Tuvix lives on within both Tuvok and Neelix.

An excellent point.

Corollary: If killing Tuvix is murder, killing Tuvok and Neelix (the effective result of allowing Tuvix to live) is also murder. And as I said, it's worse to kill two people than one person.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But Tuvix is three people.

So it's more of a tragedy to kill three people to bring back two people who were living after a fashion already. Well, I suppose that means that they're killing three people to bring none beack from the dead and you could say that they're actually killing neelix and Tuvok twice agin, since they count as individuals and and gestalt beings, so really janeway killed 5 people to bring no one back to life.



Seriously.

Kodos the executioner.

Earthers, and Starfleeters by default, don't play the numbers game anymore after that bastard went to town claiming that you could save "enough" if you sacrificed "some".

Oh.

And since Tuvix the only Talaxian/Vulcan Hybrid, and probably the only ever joined in this way or through regular rumpy-pumpy someday, killing Tuvix is the destruction of the totality of a unique speices.

There's a word for that?

I for get what it is, but i recall we though it about all the time to talk about mass slaughters when this is the complete extermination of a distinct life form.

 

[Kai Winn]

i'd have missed tuvok greatly as the character in all of st i can most identify with. like him, i like the company of my thoughts, silence, and suffer a bit from the neelix types who use other people as dumps for their stories and opinions.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Don't talk to me about Kodos. He was a mass murdering dictator who used his colony's famine as an excuse to implement his own theories of eugenics. And there's no *guarantee* that he would have actually been required to sacrifice anyone. We only have his say-so on the subject. He could have spread the food around a bit, perhaps more colonists would have lived. And didn't we learn that the Federation's relief ships arrived sooner than Kodos anticipated? He could have waited, and *no one* would have died.

With Tuvix, on the other hand, we *know* that either one person or two people had to die. It's inherent in the plot. We've *seen* it. It was absolutely guaranteed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Unless the Doctor frakked up?

All three of them could have died completely leaving no lifeform in the wake of Janeway's decision, or the two lifeforms which paired off Tuvix might not actually have been completely %100 Tuvok and %100 Neelix that we could have been left with Two Tuvix split %90/%10 each.

But I've been watching too much House. They always frakk up the first five diagnosis and treatment making the situation much much worse before they finally declare victory.

Kodos was not mad, he was pragmatic. There was X amount of food, and y amount of people and z amount of time before the federaiton relief ships arrived. If all the variables remained constant they were looking at certain death of %100 percent of the populace. kodos and the relief ships must not have been talking because he was culling half his people while they were super charging their engines that there would have been enough food to feed the full population when the relief ships did arrive.

Same problem with Captain Bly on the Bounty how his crew got pissy about being told they were only allowed to eat a tenth f the food and water they were accustomed to because they were up shit creek.

 

[chakotay_lover]

After reading all of your opinions I have formed an opinion of my own, that I am comfortable with:

Tuvix was not a person, He was a conglomeration of two peoples and their memories with cognitive abilities, only as the result of the tuvoks and neelix cognitive abilities
I came to that conclusion, after reading all the post, because he had the abilities of both tuvok and neelix, and he loved kes.

In a sense, I have stopped thinking about tuvix like a person, and more like a being that came into exsist as not a sentient being, but both tuvok and neelix sharing the same body, the same memories, and expierences.

Since I have decided this, in my mind anyway , then Janeway made the right choice, not killing a person, not taking away anyones life, but seperating two peoples from the same body, seperating memeries and expierences.

Otherwise, Tuvix had the right to live, no matter who had to die, and I dont like thinking about it that way, for some strange reason.....

 

[Saul]

What if this had happened 10 years later? Tuvix would have gained friends and built strong relationships with people. Then I doubt they'd easily put him away. They essentially killed him to bring back the other two guys. Which doesn't make it right because Tuvix didn't choose to become who he was, nor was it his intention to purposely do away with the other two guys so I don't think he is wrong.

 

[Dale]

IMHO, Tuvok and Neelix perished in the accident that created Tuvix, Tuvix was willfully executed so that Tuvok and Neelix could be reconstituted... and that is the opinion of someone who liked all three of the characters and Janeway.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tuvix was not a person, He was a conglomeration of two peoples and their memories with cognitive abilities, only as the result of the tuvoks and Neelix cognitive abilities
I came to that conclusion, after reading all the post, because he had the abilities of both tuvok and neelix, and he loved kes.

You are accurately describing sexual reproduction followed by the arguments proabortionists use to excuse their penchant for legalized murder.

10 years is a good point Saul, Janeway made the comment herself that she wouldn't have hesitated if she hadn't spent a month living and working along side Tuvix, now times that attachment by a factor of one hundred and 20... But if that actually means that she literally wouldn't have hesitated and his capture and execution looked like trying to get a kicking and screaming two year old to sit in a dentists chair, well that would have been humorous to say the least.

Suder.

Suder had a little bit of Tuvok in him.

Not much but it changed him completely.

Changed him for the better?

Even though Janeway refused to forgive nuSuder because she doesn't like murderers.

Sins of the father?

So, does that mean that Suder II was not a real person, and despite being a more moral and well thinking entity, that he should have volunteered to surrendered his existence to the true owner of life and breath the original Suder, the murdering psychotic? Why create a new personality and punish it for the deeds of some other person which previously inhabited his body's meat?

That's mean.

Tuvix wanted to bone Neelix's Girlfriend more than he wanted to remain chaste in respect of Tuvok's wife, which takes claim that he cherry picked emotions somewhat capriciously that it is also possibly that new instincts and desires were generated from the blending.

Oh my god.

Tuvok as we knew him after the episode wasn't completely Tuvok!

This "Tuvok" was still %1 Neelix which makes him %100 Tuvix!

What did he do after his brain was wiped in Riddles?

He went to the kitchen and started baking.

That was the Neelix in him given room to breath after the master of the manner had been annihilated.

Maybe that's why Neelix told Tuvok II to wind back the clock because if he could easily see that what was really on display here was not something new at all, but still Tuvix, then someone else might begin to question how much Tuvok was in him still, ipsofacto that he too was also still being a Tuvix himself as well, that Janeway might chose to lobotomise Neelix too in deference and respect to the original Neelix who died and and was replaced years earlier.

 

[Praxius]

But Tuvix is three people.

So it's more of a tragedy to kill three people to bring back two people who were living after a fashion already. Well, I suppose that means that they're killing three people to bring none beack from the dead and you could say that they're actually killing neelix and Tuvok twice agin, since they count as individuals and and gestalt beings, so really janeway killed 5 people to bring no one back to life.



Seriously.

Kodos the executioner.

Earthers, and Starfleeters by default, don't play the numbers game anymore after that bastard went to town claiming that you could save "enough" if you sacrificed "some".

Oh.

And since Tuvix the only Talaxian/Vulcan Hybrid, and probably the only ever joined in this way or through regular rumpy-pumpy someday, killing Tuvix is the destruction of the totality of a unique speices.

There's a word for that?

I for get what it is, but i recall we though it about all the time to talk about mass slaughters when this is the complete extermination of a distinct life form.

I think you're looking for the word Genocide, which this wasn't, and your above reasonig I feel is a bit flawed, considering it wasn't just three people and Tuvok/Neelix still living on in Tuvix, as even Tuvix admitted he was his own person, which he wasn't.

There wasn't a moment when Tuvok took over, or when Neelix took over, it was always Tuvix, and it was always Tuvix who was screwing up Neelix's and Kes's relationship, and it was Tuvix who was screwing up Tuvok's personal life, changing his things around to what he saw fit..... and when they get back home, shall Tuvix be allowed to screw up Tuvok's family?

Let's say Tuvix had feelings for Kes and wanted to continue that relationship?

What about Tuvok's relationship with his wife? Will Tuvix just toss that aside along with his children or will he also try to get it on with Tuvok's wife as well after kes dies a few years down the road and he's want a little bit of a booty call?

Two lives were in suspension while a third used everything from their lives to his advantage. He could have been the nicest transporter freak possible, but it doesn't change the fact that he is living his own life at the expense of two others and everything they have done since they were born. Tuvix wasn't born, he didn't grow up and develop his own life, experiences, knowledge, friends and family..... he just leeched off of everything Tuvok and Neelix worked all their lives for and to me, that's unjust.

 

[Brit]

Then I read another short story by harlen Ellison were kids upon turning 21 got to decide if they wanted to sue their parents for giving them a shitty child hood.

Guy do you remember the name of the story? I don't remember reading that one. I must have nearly everything Ellison ever wrote and I'd like to read that one.

Brit