Narada a "simple mining vessel"?

[The Wormhole]

The thing was ugly and scary looking, but like it was stated before it's a working ship, it's not made to be pretty. Of course it would have no problem taking out a ship from the 23rd century. In "In a Mirror Darkly" from ENT they get their hands on a Constitution class starship named the Defiant and it has no trouble running right through anything thrown at it in the 22nd century.

Different situation entirely. In its day, the Constitution class was the most advanced ship in the Federation. Throw one of those back 100 years and have it fight contemporary starships from races that eventually formed the Federation, obviously it's going to kick their ass. It's like sticking a modern day fighter jet in World War I.

Narada on the other hand, as a "simple mining vessel" shouldn't really have been able to rip apart Starfleet's finest unless it had been upgraded. Stick a modern day oil rig in World War I. You're still not going to win any battles.

Also I don't think Nero upgraded Narada, he didn't have time. Spock was still running from the supernova, and Nero said that he had watched Romulus destroyed. It seamed to me that the nova, the destruction of Romulus and the getting sucked into black hole all happened in rapid succession with little time in between for doing repair/retrofit job's on a ship.

This is where the Countdown comic actually makes sense. Or as much sense as this storyline can make. It wasn't until after the supernova destroyed Romulus that Spock took off, and therefore, in Nero spent the interim time upgrading Narada. Just because the movie depicts everything in the span of a few minutes doesn't negate the possibility that it could have been over a prolonged amount of time.

 

[Glacial]

Narada on the other hand, as a "simple mining vessel" shouldn't really have been able to rip apart Starfleet's finest unless it had been upgraded. Stick a modern day oil rig in World War I. You're still not going to win any battles.

I think a better analogy would be an armed merchant vessel of the 1910s-1940s, which would then be going up against a fleet of, at the latest, Napoleonic War wood-hulled, cannonball-firing frigates. It would be a massacre. Muzzle-loading cannonballs would possibly dent a steel hull, assuming the HMS Victory could even get in range of a ship with a rangefinder and a rifled, breech-loading deck gun. More than likely, they would be blown to matchsticks by explosive shells before they could even fire a shot. About the same timeframe, and about the same effect we saw vs the Kelvin et al.

I mean, we can assume, given the Narada's size, that it's sent out to go get valuable stuff, and lots of it. It must then transport said valuable stuff back to market without getting hijacked by pirates. It'd be far cheaper and more reasonable to outfit the ship with some decently-powerful weaponry than to assign a military vessel to escort it everywhere it goes. It was this logic that kept armed merchantmen in our own world running through the inter-war period.

So I have no problem with the Narada's weaponry ripping 23rd-century ships to pieces. A Galaxy-class ship would doubtless laugh at those missiles, but they'd be more than enough to smash late-24th-century pirates, or mid-23rd-century military ships.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Narada on the other hand, as a "simple mining vessel" shouldn't really have been able to rip apart Starfleet's finest unless it had been upgraded. Stick a modern day oil rig in World War I. You're still not going to win any battles.

Unless that oil rig is owned by a terrorist who spent the last five years collecting Exocet missiles from the black market. Exocets aren't all that effective compared to modern weapons (or even modern defenses) but-turn-of-the-20th naval vessels would have found them fucking terrifying.

What's interesting is that the Exocets wouldn't be that much more EFFECTIVE against older warships than they would against modern ones. They would be harder to defend against, and their intended victims would find it more difficult to cope with them in battle, but Exocets aren't exactly tactical nukes, and they wouldn't be able to rule the world with them. A clever enough enemy, getting his act together, could come up with a way to still overcome and defeat a giant oil tanker armed to the gills with over-the-counter antiship missiles; the only thing that tanker would have going for it is the fact that most of its enemies won't be ready for those kinds of weapons and it'll be able to sucker punch the lot of them before they can recover. Remember, even the Kelvin was able to hang in a firefight with the Narada for a few minutes, even dealt out some good damage too before the suicide run ended the argument.

This is why Nero is able to smash seven Federation ships in orbit of Vulcan: he can nail them one by one as they drop out of warp, before they can even get their shields up or warn the rest of the fleet. He probably did something similar to the Klingons: I doubt it was an actual battle, in fact I'd be willing to guess (deleted scenes notwithstanding) that Nero went out of his way to Pearl Harbor one of their major starbases, preemptively removing them from the picture, to keep them from interfering with his later plans.

 

[fishingforships]

This is where the Countdown comic actually makes sense. Or as much sense as this storyline can make. It wasn't until after the supernova destroyed Romulus that Spock took off, and therefore, in Nero spent the interim time upgrading Narada. Just because the movie depicts everything in the span of a few minutes doesn't negate the possibility that it could have been over a prolonged amount of time.

I guess I'll have to look into it. Do you know if they have a BOOK out yet, or when they will? I'm not much for comic's, kinda like the story to be a bit fuller than that.

 

[6079SmithW]

There is a novelization of the movie but from what I've seen and read it doesn't go into that much detail, just covering the events of the movie.

 

[The Wormhole]

This is where the Countdown comic actually makes sense. Or as much sense as this storyline can make. It wasn't until after the supernova destroyed Romulus that Spock took off, and therefore, in Nero spent the interim time upgrading Narada. Just because the movie depicts everything in the span of a few minutes doesn't negate the possibility that it could have been over a prolonged amount of time.

I guess I'll have to look into it. Do you know if they have a BOOK out yet, or when they will? I'm not much for comic's, kinda like the story to be a bit fuller than that.

The individual issues of Countdown have been combined into one graphic novel. But no, there is no prose novel for Countdown, nor do I expect there to be one.

There is a novelization of the movie out, but it doesn't go into any further detail about Nero's 24th century origins than the movie did.

Unless that oil rig is owned by a terrorist who spent the last five years collecting Exocet missiles from the black market. Exocets aren't all that effective compared to modern weapons (or even modern defenses) but-turn-of-the-20th naval vessels would have found them fucking terrifying.

Doesn't this basically prove my point? I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure oil rigs don't include missiles of any kind. Therefore, if said terrorist is collecting these things, he's kind of upgrading the rig, isn't he?

 

[BolianAuthor]

For the record, the explanation--as stated by Bob and Alex--is in the Countdown comic--which, according to the new Powers That Be, is official.

Apparently, after the events of Destiny, the Tal Shiar (or whatever) salvaged what they could from the wreckage of the Borg, retrofitting it for their needs.

As the female officer in charge of the project told Nero, "Your vessel would make a fine prototype for it...."

(BTW, that certainly raises the stakes for the "Cold War" with the Typhon Pact....)

The comic IS official, as it was in part written by Orci, who is/was part of the film production team. Anything from any Trek, written by an actual staff member, is considered canon. This is why the VOY novel "Pathways" is considered one of the very few canon novels.

I didn't mind the size of the Narada, because I had read the "Countdown" book. What bothered me about it was it's totally evil look. The JJ-film art book says that the design of the Narada was inspired by a repeating set of curved kitchen knives. That alone means it was intentionally designed to appear menacing, which is silly. Even if it's a simple mining vessel, enhanced for the mission at hand... it still should have looked utilitarian.

 

[mattburgess]

Anything from any Trek, written by an actual staff member, is considered canon.

First I've heard about this. In fact, I've heard pretty much every Trek author on this site adamantly assert that this is not the case. Their response is broken down very simply to this:

Anything filmed IS canon. Anything written/drawn IS NOT canon.

I would very much like to hear Chris Bennett's opinion on this.

 

[Jeyl]

Anything filmed IS canon. Anything written/drawn IS NOT canon.

Who cares? It's good stuff. After all, the writers don't treat anything filmed as canon all that much. Vulcan now has blue skies, moons and is ten minutes away from Earth? Or how about shields being "hull strengthener" rather than a protective field?

Their respect to canon is nothing but a laugh. If they won't take the details seriously, why should what they tell us is canon and what isn't mean anything?

 

[mattburgess]

In all honesty, the only reason I care is because I'm desperate for the tripe that is Countdown to be ignored by treklit when they reach the right date.
"No B4 as Data!!"
"No B4 as Data!!"

 

[BolianAuthor]

Anything from any Trek, written by an actual staff member, is considered canon.

First I've heard about this. In fact, I've heard pretty much every Trek author on this site adamantly assert that this is not the case. Their response is broken down very simply to this:

Anything filmed IS canon. Anything written/drawn IS NOT canon.

I would very much like to hear Chris Bennett's opinion on this.

If Chris wants to give you his opinion, he can. It does not change the fact of what is. Anything written by a member of the production staff is canon. You can choose to accept that, or not... that is your choice. Personally, I choose to honor it, and go by that.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Unless that oil rig is owned by a terrorist who spent the last five years collecting Exocet missiles from the black market. Exocets aren't all that effective compared to modern weapons (or even modern defenses) but-turn-of-the-20th naval vessels would have found them fucking terrifying.

Doesn't this basically prove my point? I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure oil rigs don't include missiles of any kind. Therefore, if said terrorist is collecting these things, he's kind of upgrading the rig, isn't he?

Not exactly. You can bolt an Exocet launcher onto just about anything, that doesn't qualify as an "upgrade" as much as "adding guns." Maybe if they added some sophisticated radar and tracking systems to boot, but I don't think the Narada had any of that kind o gear on board, just 24th century civilian sensors.

 

[Broccoli]

Anything from any Trek, written by an actual staff member, is considered canon.

First I've heard about this. In fact, I've heard pretty much every Trek author on this site adamantly assert that this is not the case. Their response is broken down very simply to this:

Anything filmed IS canon. Anything written/drawn IS NOT canon.

I would very much like to hear Chris Bennett's opinion on this.

If Chris wants to give you his opinion, he can. It does not change the fact of what is. Anything written by a member of the production staff is canon. You can choose to accept that, or not... that is your choice. Personally, I choose to honor it, and go by that.

That was never, ever the case. Even Jeri Taylor's Mosaic and Pathways are not considered canon. The only thing that is considered canon (unless that mandate has changed) is anything presented on screen in an episode or a movie.

If what you say is true (it isn't), then that would make the Shatnerverse, Federation, and Prime Directive (among others)canon (the Reeves-Stevenses wrote for ENT, after all). Those stories, while good on their own, cannot connect with what has been established on screen and have been mostly ignored by other tie-in authors when crafting their stories.

 

[mattburgess]

Damn right.

 

[Rush Limborg]

ENOUGH ABOUT CANON!!!

In all honesty, the only reason I care is because I'm desperate for the tripe that is Countdown to be ignored by treklit when they reach the right date.
"No B4 as Data!!"
"No B4 as Data!!"

Well...one of the Vulcan Science Council guys referred to Data in the comic as a reconstructed android.

After B-4 succesfully "remembered" all of Data's memories, etc., they put it all in a reconstructed body.

My guess is...Maddox built it.

 

[MisterPL]

What the hell kind of mining vessel is that huge thing?

The USCSS Nostromo leaps to mind.

If the Narada also processes the ore it mines, it'd have to be a long bigger than, say, a Starfleet Tug that would merely transport the goods.

 

[The Wormhole]

The comic IS official, as it was in part written by Orci, who is/was part of the film production team. Anything from any Trek, written by an actual staff member, is considered canon. This is why the VOY novel "Pathways" is considered one of the very few canon novels.

Actually, Pocket Books has always maintained that no Trek novel, not even Jeri Taylor's Voyager novels are canon.

 

[BolianAuthor]

^

Unfortunately, Pocket Books in not "in charge" of the entire Star Trek franchise, and as such, their words mean nothing, compared to the people who actually produce the show that all of their books are based upon.

 

[Broccoli]

^

Unfortunately, Pocket Books in not "in charge" of the entire Star Trek franchise, and as such, their words mean nothing, compared to the people who actually produce the show that all of their books are based upon.

Good thing Paramount made that decree then that anything not onscreen Trek is not canon.

From MemoryAlpha:

The Star Trek canon is generally defined as all live-action television series and feature films released by Paramount Pictures. With the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD, the studio appears to have changed its stance, and is now listing the cartoon series (aired 1973–1974), as a part of established canon. The various "official" references (such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology) may be used as a guide to canon information, but are not canon in and of themselves.

Based off that, Memory Alpha set their canon policy, which goes in a bit deeper.

Additionally, startrek.com also maintains that only on screen stuff is canon (here and here) and here although they do suggest that Jeri Taylor's Mosaic and Pathways was canon at a point, but is no longer considered as such.

 

[SilentP]

What the hell kind of mining vessel is that huge thing?

The USCSS Nostromo leaps to mind.

If the Narada also processes the ore it mines, it'd have to be a long bigger than, say, a Starfleet Tug that would merely transport the goods.

It would also have to quite tough, to withstand any mining mishaps that might occur. If you're mining in space far away from help, you have to be in a ship that's easy to repair, tough and plenty in the way of redundant systems.