Tuvix -- Moralilty vs Life

[chakotay_lover]

I never could decide wheather or not I agreed Janeways decision to kill Tuvix.

Tuvix was a person who deserve to live if he wanted to, but so did Tuvok and neelilx(although I could have lived with out him )

Anyway that episode made me think that Janeway murdered tuvix because she wanted her friends back, its so hard to decide wether or not she made the right desicion, because even the doctor did not want to kill him.

Although I realize that losing the tuvok would have ruined the series, tuvix begged for his life, he was a being that wanted to live.

The ending should have been some technobabble about how they could all lilve....

Do you agree with her desicion or not and why? or did you hate the episode, and why? I really want to know if any voyager fans didnt like this episode.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Based on the situation at hand, Neelix and Tuvok were both dead, and a new, distinct person existed in their place. What Janeway did was tantamount to murder. It wasn't fair that all three couldn't exist as separate people, but that's life sometimes. It would have been just as wrong for Janeway to deliberately create Tuvix at the expense of Tuvok and Neelix's lives. Either one requires murdering a sentient being against their will.

 

[Voyagerian]

Janeway clearly took no pleasure in erasing Tuvix from existence... that much was clear in the final seconds as she welcomes them back, and enters the corridor, with the expression on her face...but once the ability was there, she acted. Kes became a tipping point I suppose, but, for all her love for Kes, and wishing to remove her pain and loss, the same feeligs would have been there-especially for Tuvok, her dearest, oldest friend, all along.Was it morally right? One could parse it, no. But then, if that situation were real, how many of us would step over that line, if it meant having back someone as they had been.Noone wanted to see him die, as Tuvix became as 'more than a transporter accident'.I think this is a strong episode, and more than merely another take on the 'transporter incident' story-type. The scene with Kathryn and Kes in the former's quarters is among my alltime favorites, and also therein we see Janeway's mention of Tuvok in understanding Kes' suffering so well...and why in part her choice became what it did.

 

[Jbarney]

I have always been shocked by this episode. I don't think my take on it is the same as many other people, but I'd like to share what my reaction was.

I don't think the episode's story was meant to be overly political, but for all of the messages Star Trek has been willing to explore over the years, I have to applaud the writers. In this case they put story above message or politics and delivered a very thought provoking episode. I've always thought Tuvix existance and Janeway's decision really gave the writers the chance to force viewers to explore the idea of individual liberty and what exactly it means.

Does Janeway's decision to kill Tuvix at all suggest that government (Janeway) has the right to be involved in some personal decisions? Tuvix was a living breathing individual. He was not given the right to make a choice over what happened to him for the sake of two lives. Sound like any debate within our society?

At the very least it was an extremely thought provoking episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Killing Tuvix is agreeing with the Vidiians.

 

[aelius]

Killing Tuvix was morally no different than if aliens had taken Tuvok and Neelix hostage and demanded that Janeway murder a political (or other) refugee that had taken sanctuary on Voyager in return for their release.
I thought the episode was thought provoking, an example of what Voyager be when it was good, but I found Janeways decision to be indefensible. Had I been a Starfleet JAG officer I would have had to charge her with murder on Voyagers return to the Alpha Quadrant.
The writers, in spite of turning out an interesting episode, wrote themselves into a corner. There was only one ethical choice, and the crew could not make it because it would eliminate two cast members.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Anyone could have brought her up on charges, and anyone can be drafted into the jag office as long as they're a command level officer if the rites from TNG measure of a man can be recalled correctly in my brain.

It's really a question of who they'd get to judge since Neelix and Tuvok wouldn't be impartial enough to volunteer, since one being an outsider and the other a Vulcan, they would seem to b e perfect to effect blind justice on Janeway, y'know except for the fact that Neelix was hopelessly head over heels in love with Janeway?

 

[Brit]

Well here we go beating the dead horse again, No one is going to agree on anything here. The Janeway haters will continue to hate using this episode to "prove" how retched an individual she was. The Janeway lovers will counteract and again we will hash through another thread with a lot of expressed venom.

But if that is what you have in mind here we go.

One Janeway didn't have any other choice. Tuvok and Neelix were the main lives, they didn't ask to be combined, and if they lived in Tuvix then Tuvix lived within them so that argument doesn't hold water.

Tuvix was in effect holding them both hostage. Had he been allowed to live at the cost of both of the other men, he would have had to leave Voyager because he would have been a very disruptive presents. Doesn't matter if it was his fault or not, because it was no one's fault but Kes couldn't be around him, Kathryn was starting to have problems, and instead of taking the high road which might have gained a little respect for himself, Tuvix tried to get the very people that had lost dear friends (Kes especially) to agree that he should live over the choice of their own loved ones. It would have only gotten worse.

If you are a loving parent and you had the chance to bring a child back you would do it. If you have a lover that is dearer to you than your own life, you would do it. If you have a friend that is closer than your own right hand, you would do it. If anyone would sacrifice any of these relationships then they have no idea of the depth of the decision, and probably have no real connected relationships in the first place.

One more time Janeway was right, Tuvok and Neelix took precedence. It was their lives at stake not an amalgamation that was born from an accident, besides he lived on within them, and if he didn't then he was a liar on top of being a thief.

Brit

 

[Wicca who Wonta]

I think the decision that was wrong either way. I get the arguments about Tuvix being a sentient, living breathing life form and that Tuvok and Neelix were dead. But I also think that Tuvok and Neelix had the right to live out the rest of their lives as separate beings as this was an accidental merging of their bodies and minds.

But I lean towards it being the correct decision to restore them to individuals.

 

[Triskelion]

Tuvix was murdered? Where's the body?

Individual rights cannot be extended to him at the cost of the rights of Tuvok and Neelix. If one argues they lost their individual rights, one cannot then invoke them in Tuvix's favor. Call it what it is - reverse entitlement.

 

[kimc]

The ending should have been some technobabble about how they could all lilve....

That would have been the safe way out but would have also hurt the overall story, imo. This was an impossible decision - either way someone was going to die. Janeway opted to save Tuvok and Neelix at the cost of Tuvix. I think it was the right call even if it wasn't an easy one.

I'm sure if the show had gone the other way around we'd be debating whether or not Janeway "killed" Tuvok and Neelix.

 

[JustKate]

I never could decide wheather or not I agreed Janeways decision to kill Tuvix.

Tuvix was a person who deserve to live if he wanted to, but so did Tuvok and neelilx(although I could have lived with out him )

Anyway that episode made me think that Janeway murdered tuvix because she wanted her friends back, its so hard to decide wether or not she made the right desicion, because even the doctor did not want to kill him.

Although I realize that losing the tuvok would have ruined the series, tuvix begged for his life, he was a being that wanted to live.

The ending should have been some technobabble about how they could all lilve....

Do you agree with her desicion or not and why? or did you hate the episode, and why? I really want to know if any voyager fans didnt like this episode.

I agree, kimc. Every time this comes up, I am puzzled by the way that so many people seem to miss what - to me, anyway - is the main point of this episode.

It's not supposed to be easy. It's not supposed to be obvious. I am truly and sincerely worried by those viewers who believe whichever answer they favor is clear, easy and ought to be obvious to anyone, because it's not even close to obvious to anyone. I'm sorry, all of you believers in "it's obvious," but no matter how much you'd like to believe otherwise, neither answer is obvious. It's a dilemma. It's is supposed to leave fans arguing about what should or should not have been done. You're supposed to think about things like Tuvok's and Neelix's right to life (deliberate word choice there) versus Tuvix's right to life (ditto) and how irreconcilable those two rights are.

The ending is supposed to make the viewer think, and it's supposed leave the thoughful viewer feeling confused, ambivalent and maybe even a bit angry.

What more can you ask from 40-some minutes of a sci-fi TV show? It can't all be space battles and cool aliens.

 

[stj]

Yes, the dilemma is impossible to resolve. It's also an impossible dilemma, which means that there's not much to the episode thematically, despite the flash and sizzle.

Janeway haters should note that this episode conclusively disproves claims that the writers arbitrarily distorted plots to make Janeway look good, though.

 

[Praxius]

I never could decide wheather or not I agreed Janeways decision to kill Tuvix.

Tuvix was a person who deserve to live if he wanted to, but so did Tuvok and neelilx(although I could have lived with out him )

Anyway that episode made me think that Janeway murdered tuvix because she wanted her friends back, its so hard to decide wether or not she made the right desicion, because even the doctor did not want to kill him.

Although I realize that losing the tuvok would have ruined the series, tuvix begged for his life, he was a being that wanted to live.

The ending should have been some technobabble about how they could all lilve....

Do you agree with her desicion or not and why? or did you hate the episode, and why? I really want to know if any voyager fans didnt like this episode.

Basically I boil the decision down to this:

Tuvix was created from two people losing their existence and while there existed a chance of bringing back those who were lost in this situation, I say first come, first serve..... they were healthy and in any other normal situation they would be able to continue their lives as they had. They had loved ones and families.... and just for Tuvix to be as selfish as he was to not see this and think his own existence was more important doesn't sit well with me.

He already pretty well screwed up the relationship with Kes, and what about Tuvok's family?

Based on the situation and given information at hand, Tuvix's life was not worth two lives in the end, along with many other lives being affects because of his selfishness. He could speak for himself, but the other two couldn't.

It was the right thing to do considering the situation and both Neelix and Tuvok sure didn't seem to be bothered about being back to normal.

 

[Praxius]

I agree, kimc. Every time this comes up, I am puzzled by the way that so many people seem to miss what - to me, anyway - is the main point of this episode.

It's not supposed to be easy. It's not supposed to be obvious. I am truly and sincerely worried by those viewers who believe whichever answer they favor is clear, easy and ought to be obvious to anyone, because it's not even close to obvious to anyone. I'm sorry, all of you believers in "it's obvious," but no matter how much you'd like to believe otherwise, neither answer is obvious. It's a dilemma. It's is supposed to leave fans arguing about what should or should not have been done. You're supposed to think about things like Tuvok's and Neelix's right to life (deliberate word choice there) versus Tuvix's right to life (ditto) and how irreconcilable those two rights are.

Indeed... that's what you're supposed to do, and of course it's not supposed to be an easy thing to answer..... but an answer exists none the less. The point about all of this is to determine what conclusions each of us would come to. Sure it's supposed to make you think, but it's not that complicated and answers do exists.

I personally don't understand why you worry so much about how fast someone comes to a decision/conclusion as it's far better then just sitting on the fence and doing nothing.

You can't just dictate to people what you think is possible or not, because then you're no better then those you are complaining about silly. It is obvious depending on the information provided, the laws, rules, regulations, rights, etc. that all exist.

Tuvok and Neelix were not technically "Dead" ~ Calling them dead is the easy way out of the situation and it's far from being true because they are both alive in this combined individual. The problem is that this individual believed all his combined throughts, memories, feelings, etc. were his, when they wern't..... they were both Neelix and Tuvok's..... ever single bit of it.

Because there was a method of restoring both Tuvok and Neelix back to their original selves, this wasn't some means of bringing back the dead, but correcting an accident that affected both of their lives..... nothing more.

The ending is supposed to make the viewer think, and it's supposed leave the thoughful viewer feeling confused, ambivalent and maybe even a bit angry.

didn't really do that for me. Of course I sympathized with Tuvix's position, however it was irrelevant and his one opinion on his own rights does not trump the opinions, individual rights and existence of two people (Majority Rules ~ Needs of the Many outweigh the Needs of the Few.)

He went to the teleported, vanished, end of story.... it's not like he suffered.

Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

Added:

And hypothetically could I have the stomach to be the one to make the decision or push the button?

Sure.

Why?

Because when it comes to a situation of personal rights, emotional bias and one side arguing their rights are more valid then anothers, making a decision based on emotions is not only flawed, but not balanced..... this situation all boils down to numbers that lead me to a mistake that requires correcting in order to ensure the safety of two existing and distinguished crew members, not to ensure the safety of one mutant transporter accident who's only existence begins and ends with everything that made up the other two crew members.

It'd be no more different then trying to uphold the rights of a clone over the rights of the original individual. One is real, the other is not.....

Sure in either situation, a living being will be sacraficed one way or another, thus there's no logic in dilly dallying over the fact that all choices are bad ones...... pick the least worst and move on with your life.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

It's not supposed to be easy...The ending is supposed to make the viewer think, and it's supposed to leave the thoughful viewer feeling confused, ambivalent and maybe even a bit angry.

Agree. I see the ep and see Janeway as the ultimate sin eater. SHE took on the sin of killing Tuvix so that Tuvok and Neelix could live. There was no "body" when she was done, but the crew had their memories of the being known as Tuvix, and the enjoyment they had with him, and they all bear some measure of guilt by not stopping her. But they couldn't stop her without feeling more guilt at not rescuing their other two comrades. "There, but for the grace of God go I." Be glad you will never have THAT particular Koybayashi Maru Moment.

 

[JustKate]

^^ "Cut and dried" is, in fact, exactly the sort of answer that worries me. This situation is not cut and dried. I don't mean to pick on you, Praxius, since I've seen other people do exactly the same thing, but in your posts, you describe all the things that make it not cut and dried: you state that it isn't easy, you state that you sympathize with Tuvix, yoiu agree that he has rights (it's just that his rights are "trumped" by Neelix's and Tuvok's), etc. And yet even after all that, you still can come out and state that something that clearly isn't cut and dried, not even for you, is in fact cut and dried.

You say that you don't understand how I can worry about people coming to a conclusion about a moral dilemma. Well, I can and do. It would be one thing if lives hung in the balance. In that case, you do the best you can. But it seems to me that the proper response to a piece of fiction that asks viewers to consider all the possibilities is to actually consider all the possibilities.

You have, it seems to me. So why make the situation seem more obvious than it actually is? There's no shame in carefully considering a moral dilemma before making a choice.

You're also assuming that I disagree with your basic conclusion about Tuvix vs. Tuvok and Neelix when in fact I do not. What I disagree with is that there is a choice - either one, doesn't matter - that is so obvious that everybody should be able to see it. It isn't and they can't.

 

[Praxius]

^^ "Cut and dried" is, in fact, exactly the sort of answer that worries me. This situation is not cut and dried. I don't mean to pick on you, Praxius, since I've seen other people do exactly the same thing,

No worries, as I opened myself up for comments pro or con by responding in the first place, by all means.....

but in your posts, you describe all the things that make it not cut and dried: you state that it isn't easy, you state that you sympathize with Tuvix, yoiu agree that he has rights (it's just that his rights are "trumped" by Neelix's and Tuvok's), etc. And yet even after all that, you still can come out and state that something that clearly isn't cut and dried, not even for you, is in fact cut and dried.

But it is cut and dry (for me anyways) because no matter what way I look at it, no matter what my personal feelings are or hypothetical emotional attachments I would have, my answer remains the same in each case.

I brought up a number of examples that may cause problems, but then explained my views on those examples and how I still come to the same conclusion. There is no other answer but to save Tuvok and Neelix over Tuvix.

Sure someone may come up with another decision and may lean towards letting Tuvix to live, so be it, that's their position.... but for me, the answer is clear and simple.

You say that you don't understand how I can worry about people coming to a conclusion about a moral dilemma. Well, I can and do. It would be one thing if lives hung in the balance. In that case, you do the best you can. But it seems to me that the proper response to a piece of fiction that asks viewers to consider all the possibilities is to actually consider all the possibilities.

You have, it seems to me. So why make the situation seem more obvious than it actually is? There's no shame in carefully considering a moral dilemma before making a choice.

You're also assuming that I disagree with your basic conclusion about Tuvix vs. Tuvok and Neelix when in fact I do not. What I disagree with is that there is a choice - either one, doesn't matter - that is so obvious that everybody should be able to see it. It isn't and they can't.

Fair enough, and I never said you couldn't worry about people who come to such conclusions in such a way, I just didn't understand where the worry was about..... whether it was worry that those people didn't hold much compassion or it was worry that people seem to not let the situation bother them to come to a "quick" decision.

In all of my decisions in any situation, they all involved some considerable thinking before coming to a conclusion, even if the situation is trivial, thus I suppose I feel my amount of thinking on the subject that led me to my conclusion wasn't any more or less then any other time.

Cut and Dry for me usually means something that only has one answer that I can support. It wouldn't be cut and dry if I came to two or more conclusions/solutions and wasn't sure which one to decide on. For some people one decision or the other in this topic might put them in this position where it'd be difficult to figure out..... but in my eyes, no matter how much Tuvix begged and used emotional pleas to stay alive, it wouldn't make a difference and I'd drag his arse to the transporter if I needed to.

As said before, I may sympathized with his problem, but it would be remote and would have no affect on my decision overall. In the end, I'd go to bed and sleep well knowing I made the only decision I could live with and what was the best for everyone, including Tuvix.

Just because it may be a difficult decision for some to make, doesn't mean it'd be a difficult decision to make for others...... that's the only point I was trying to make.

 

[JustKate]

^ Ah, I see. My definition of "cut and dried" is "not needing much thought or discussion." So, seeing as this exact episode comes up frequently, both here and in General Trek whenever anybody wants to talk about why that person dislikes Janeway, you can imagine why I disagree with your use of the term.

 

[Praxius]

Ah I understand.... fair enough.