Note from a cranky editor

[Christopher]

^Generally when you don't have the typographical resources to insert an em dash, you substitute a pair of hyphens -- like so.

 

[BrotherBenny]

^Generally when you don't have the typographical resources to insert an em dash, you substitute a pair of hyphens -- like so.

That said, both MS Word and OpenOffice's autocorrect facility turn the double hyphen into an em dash. I'm sure that most word processing programs with autocorrect functions can have that added if it isn't already.

 

[Christopher]

^But JustKate and I were specifically discussing how to handle dashes when posting on bulletin boards, not when using word processors.

 

[JustKate]

^Generally when you don't have the typographical resources to insert an em dash, you substitute a pair of hyphens -- like so.

That said, both MS Word and OpenOffice's autocorrect facility turn the double hyphen into an em dash. I'm sure that most word processing programs with autocorrect functions can have that added if it isn't already.

Yes, I of course know about the double hyphens in the place of an em-dash - that's how we used to do it back in the days when I learned to type on a typewriter. But I don't like that, either. I think the single hyphen works just as well and it's cleaner looking.

Most MSWord will autocorrect for both em-dashes and en-dashes, BTW. And as Christopher noted, that doesn't help much on bulletin boards.

 

[S. Gomez]

Would someone mind explaining the difference between an em-dash and an en-dash? Is the en-dash the one you use when you put a space on either side?

 

[Christopher]

^"Em" and "en" refer to certain lengths. An en dash is a short dash, longer than a hyphen and roughly the width of the letter n, which is generally used to set apart numbers in a range (like in "5-10 years," though here I have to write it with a hyphen). An em dash is a longer dash, roughly the width of the letter m, which is the kind used to mark off a parenthetical clause or to indicate a sharp break in speech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash

 

[Sakrysta]

MS Word creats an en dash when you set off a hyphen with spaces. It creates an em dash when you insert two hyphens between words without spaces. I always end up using en dashes when I should use em dashes. But I'm with JustKate - the em dash is another of my stubborn intentional errors. I find them rather annoying and unnecessary. I think the hyphen and the dash are enough of a distinction - we don't really need two dashes for clarity's sake. In fact, web usage would suggest that the hyphen itself is sufficient, as context does a pretty good job of defining function.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

^You used square brackets in a work of prose fiction? That's rather unusual. What did you use them for?

Ahh, I was looking for this forum...

I just received my rejection letter for one of my stories, and I guess I may have to tweak my story soon. (It's still out in three other markets).

This particular editior didn't like comments in brackets [ ], wanting me to integrate the comments into the story, since she believed that it destroyed the flow of said story....and it was said I shouldn't use and/or in the story....

Hmmm.....

There was something else mentioned, but one would actually have to read the story to know what she was talking about....

I don't mean to be insensitive, and if I am then please forgive me, but if you have used text in the [] to explain something which was necessary to the story but which you couldn't describe adequately, then I would recommend a writing course. If you used them to explain the backstory to a particular event, perhaps dialogue would be better suited in that instance, without it being an infodump. If you used them to convey a character's thoughts, then italics might have been better suited but the [] should be fine if you are going for something unusual.

If you want any assistance, PM me for my email address and send me your story and I'll see if I can help. My fiancée has helped me immensely with my own writing and I'd like to help someone else.

Avoiding "and/or" is good editorial advice as well. It's an awkward construction and not good for the flow of a sentence.

Also... Joel, you sent the same story to four markets at once? Most markets frown on simultaneous submissions. If they want to buy your story and you come back and tell them you've sold it to someone else instead, that's not considered kosher or polite. If they're going to invest their attention and interest in your story, they deserve to know that it won't turn out to be a waste of their time. As a rule, you shouldn't send a story to more than one magazine at the same time unless they specifically say they're okay with simultaneous submissions.

Add my name to the Save the Semicolons movement - wouldn't that make a great bumper sticker? - and also to the list of those who are a little puzzled by Joel Kirk's brackets.

However, I must admit to an irrational dislike of the em-dash. Really. I know it serves some specific and useful purposes, and I even know all the little rules and guidelines that govern its use, as well as that of en-dashes and hyphens, but hardly anbody else does. As a result it's used wrongly so often (often replaced by the en-dash or a single hyphen, which is what I use here since inserting real dashes in bulletin board posts is annoying) that its effectiveness has been diminished. Also, I just hate how it looks in text - that's the "irrational" part.

I also agree that and/or should almost always be avoided. Pick one or the other - that's my advice.

@Christopher, JustKate, and BrotherBenny:

Here is a very short tidbit, although I think I may be posting a bit too much:

...the girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short black hair [which was seemingly brushed and/or combed]; calm, handsome, shaven features; and benign smile and eyes [the eyes, which she could tell were brown, even though it was evening].

Of course, now that I've read it...the story could use a bit more tweaking...

And, BrotherBenny, I have taken a couple of writing courses....(with some being required) and I did very well...i.e. 'B's' and 'A's'... However, I don't mind letting you take a look at the story...

 

[Christopher]

Here is a very short tidbit, although I think I may be posting a bit too much:

...the girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short black hair [which was seemingly brushed and/or combed]; calm, handsome, shaven features; and benign smile and eyes [the eyes, which she could tell were brown, even though it was evening].

Okay, that's definitely not correct punctuation. There's no reason at all to use square brackets there. As a rule, you never use square brackets in your own original prose. They're something you use to insert comments into quoted passages from other writers. The only time you'd use them in your own writing is if you need to nest two parenthetical comments within each other, in which case you could use square brackets for the inner comment (though I think that's less common today than it was [or perhaps is mainly for nonfiction]). More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket#Box_brackets_or_square_brackets_.5B_.5D

 

[JustKate]

I agree with Christopher - the square brackets just don't work for me. Honestly, they seem like a gimmick. The reason is that they aren't really doing anything that parentheses or even a comma could do and probably do better, at least with a little bit of tweaking, so why use the offbeat punctuation? Maybe you used them just because they look kind of different?

I have found that when I have difficulty punctuating a sentence, it's a sign that I have written a sentence that is too complicated, that is too unfocussed or that is clumsily worded.

 

[captcalhoun]

that's just poorly written any way. IMO.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I have to agree with the others.

However, here might be a way of rewriting that snippet.

The girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short, combed black hair and clean-shaven face. His calm and handsome features, benign smile, and brown eyes (which shone brightly in the evening light) made her feel safe.

 

[Deckerd]

Regarding 'irregardless' reminds me of the labelling problem encountered in the UK because people did not understand that the adjective from 'inflame' was 'inflammable' and took the message 'DANGER, HIGHLY INFLAMMABLE' to mean it wouldn't catch light if exposed to a naked flame. So they had to invent the word 'flammable' for this purpose.

Just as a matter of curiosity on my part: how do the North Americans on the board pronounce the word 'buoyant'? Or indeed 'buoyancy'?

 

[Christopher]

I have to agree with the others.

However, here might be a way of rewriting that snippet.

The girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short, combed black hair and clean-shaven face. His calm and handsome features, benign smile, and brown eyes (which shone brightly in the evening light) made her feel safe.

Actually a lot of that detail is probably unnecessary. The specifics of his grooming regimen, for example, are not something the reader probably needs to know in this context. And given that his name is Hideyoshi, it's pretty much a given that he has dark hair and brown eyes; the only reason it would be necessary to specify his hair and eye color is if they were not what the reader would expect from someone with a Japanese name. It would be enough to say something like "Hideyoshi's handsome, clean-cut features bore a calm smile which struck the girl as benign." Since you've already got "benign" in there, adding "non-threatening" as well is redundant. In prose, especially in short fiction, less is more. Avoid using more words than you have to.

Just as a matter of curiosity on my part: how do the North Americans on the board pronounce the word 'buoyant'? Or indeed 'buoyancy'?

Pretty much like "boyant" and "boyancy."

 

[Deckerd]

Pretty much like "boyant" and "boyancy."

Just wondering, since your hilarious pronunciation of 'buoy' must have come from somewhere.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I have to agree with the others.

However, here might be a way of rewriting that snippet.

The girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short, combed black hair and clean-shaven face. His calm and handsome features, benign smile, and brown eyes (which shone brightly in the evening light) made her feel safe.

Actually a lot of that detail is probably unnecessary. The specifics of his grooming regimen, for example, are not something the reader probably needs to know in this context. And given that his name is Hideyoshi, it's pretty much a given that he has dark hair and brown eyes; the only reason it would be necessary to specify his hair and eye color is if they were not what the reader would expect from someone with a Japanese name. It would be enough to say something like "Hideyoshi's handsome, clean-cut features bore a calm smile which struck the girl as benign." Since you've already got "benign" in there, adding "non-threatening" as well is redundant. In prose, especially in short fiction, less is more. Avoid using more words than you have to.

That's a good point and one I should have taken into consideration. However, my aim was to remove the unnecessary punctuation whilst still keeping the feel of the piece. As to what his grooming regimen is, we don't actually know the context of anything from that snippet so we can't really make judgement calls, only educated guesses based on prior knowledge of both reading widely and writing extensively.

I still need help with passive writing and tenses, since I always tend to switch between tenses when writing action sequences. Writing courses and classes have not really helped in that regard since they do not focus on any one area. Hopefully once I'm settled into my new home in the US I'll be able to do something about that.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Here is a very short tidbit, although I think I may be posting a bit too much:

...the girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short black hair [which was seemingly brushed and/or combed]; calm, handsome, shaven features; and benign smile and eyes [the eyes, which she could tell were brown, even though it was evening].

Okay, that's definitely not correct punctuation. There's no reason at all to use square brackets there. As a rule, you never use square brackets in your own original prose. They're something you use to insert comments into quoted passages from other writers. The only time you'd use them in your own writing is if you need to nest two parenthetical comments within each other, in which case you could use square brackets for the inner comment (though I think that's less common today than it was [or perhaps is mainly for nonfiction]). More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket#Box_brackets_or_square_brackets_.5B_.5D

Thank you....

that's just poorly written any way. IMO.

After reading it again, I agree with you...

I agree with Christopher - the square brackets just don't work for me. Honestly, they seem like a gimmick. The reason is that they aren't really doing anything that parentheses or even a comma could do and probably do better, at least with a little bit of tweaking, so why use the offbeat punctuation? Maybe you used them just because they look kind of different?

I have found that when I have difficulty punctuating a sentence, it's a sign that I have written a sentence that is too complicated, that is too unfocussed or that is clumsily worded.

I tried to be clever, and yes different...

However, I do agree, JustKate, it could use some tweaking....

I have to agree with the others.

However, here might be a way of rewriting that snippet.

The girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short, combed black hair and clean-shaven face. His calm and handsome features, benign smile, and brown eyes (which shone brightly in the evening light) made her feel safe.

I have to agree with the others.

However, here might be a way of rewriting that snippet.

The girl found Hideyoshi non-threatening with his short, combed black hair and clean-shaven face. His calm and handsome features, benign smile, and brown eyes (which shone brightly in the evening light) made her feel safe.

Actually a lot of that detail is probably unnecessary. The specifics of his grooming regimen, for example, are not something the reader probably needs to know in this context. And given that his name is Hideyoshi, it's pretty much a given that he has dark hair and brown eyes; the only reason it would be necessary to specify his hair and eye color is if they were not what the reader would expect from someone with a Japanese name. It would be enough to say something like "Hideyoshi's handsome, clean-cut features bore a calm smile which struck the girl as benign." Since you've already got "benign" in there, adding "non-threatening" as well is redundant. In prose, especially in short fiction, less is more. Avoid using more words than you have to.

Thanks, Christopher...

 

[Lindley]

Sometimes square brackets are used to denote an alien language or a speech impediment.

 

[Christopher]

Sometimes square brackets are used to denote an alien language or a speech impediment.

Err, could you give examples of what you mean?

 

[Ptrope]

Re: semi-colons:

I once knew a man who had his semi-colon removed, and now he has to punctuate into a bag.

Add me to the Save the Semi-Colons movement, as well. I use them extensively, and, hopefully, accurately, in my writing and postings online. As for dashes, I see them as entirely distinct from commas; I use them for parenthetical asides that still follow the main thrust of a sentence, as opposed to actual parentheses for asides that stray somewhat further from the subject.