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SGA: The creation of Michael

Wicca who Wonta

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I just rewatched the episode 2x18 "Michael". I find it a bit strange that the writers chose to have Dr Beckett push for the experiment that created Michael. As a doctor he has sworn to do no harm and he, as well as every member of the expedition, should know that the Geneva Convention strictly says that "no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest".

I know it was done in the best interest of humans but the ends doesn't always justify the means in my opinion.

What do you all think?
 
I thought it was an interesting episode that asked some important moral questions. The problem was that it required the characters to act either (a) stupidly, (b) completely out of character, or (c) both in order to carry out the story, and in the end, Michael's ambiguous origins were discarded in favor of turning him into an evil, cardboard villain.
 
Turning a Waith into a human may be a sound treatment had it worked. It would have made it possible for them to coexist with the rest of the population instead of eating them.
 
I thought it was an interesting episode that asked some important moral questions. The problem was that it required the characters to act either (a) stupidly, (b) completely out of character, or (c) both in order to carry out the story, and in the end, Michael's ambiguous origins were discarded in favor of turning him into an evil, cardboard villain.
I agree! They should have been dealt more with the ethical aspects of what they created.

And the alternative comply or die that they gave him at the end of the episode was just an incentive for him to escape and to create further problems.
Turning a Waith into a human may be a sound treatment had it worked. It would have made it possible for them to coexist with the rest of the population instead of eating them.
Yes, the intentions were good. But since it was highly experimental, and they probably knew that it might not work properly and might fail, it wasn't a humane thing to do imo. They didn't act any better than the Wraith themselves in this episode.
 
The problem is that they tried to "fix" the Wraith when there's nothing biologically wrong with them. While humanity is entitled to fight back against the Wraith, they don't have the right to mutilate them in this way without their consent.

I agree that it seems unconscionable that Dr. Beckett would ever consent to being involved with such an experiment, let alone be the loudest voice pushing for it.

And whenever Michael shows up, everyone suddenly gets really stupid (except for Ronon). Maybe it's an unknown side-effect of the serum.

The really dumb thing was when they decided that Michael was too much of a security risk on Atlantis, so they sent him to a facility with even less security!:wtf: The smart thing to do would be to send him to Earth through the Stargate. Let him rot in a basement in Area 51. That way, he'd be too far away from any other Wraith to communicate with them telepathically. And even if he escaped from Area 51, it would be nearly impossible for him to find and reach the SGC, reach the Gateroom, and decipher the SGC dialing computer to get back to the Pegasus Galaxy. Worst case scenario: He escapes and occasionally picks off campers in the wilderness.
 
The smart thing to do would be to send him to Earth through the Stargate. Let him rot in a basement in Area 51. That way, he'd be too far away from any other Wraith to communicate with them telepathically. And even if he escaped from Area 51, it would be nearly impossible for him to find and reach the SGC, reach the Gateroom, and decipher the SGC dialing computer to get back to the Pegasus Galaxy. Worst case scenario: He escapes and occasionally picks off campers in the wilderness.
Or to another planet in the Milky Way. Uninhabited preferably. Take away the gate and he's stuck there.
 
The problem is that they tried to "fix" the Wraith when there's nothing biologically wrong with them. While humanity is entitled to fight back against the Wraith, they don't have the right to mutilate them in this way without their consent.

The evolution of the wraith wasn't a natural one and yes there is somegthing wrong with them, the same thing that's wrong with any vampire. However I didn't think Michael was a cardboard villain, he was one of the better villains on the show and he's anger was understandable. The decision to change Michael was a shocker and it flies in the face of epople who say that the Stargate series don't take chances, it was a questionable moral decision.

One more thing, locking him up at Area 51 is also breaking the Geneva code for the treatment of prisoners, so they'd be in the wrong one way or the other. The easiest thing to do is just to kill him.
 
Worst case scenario: He escapes and occasionally picks off campers in the wilderness.

While listening to the Rolling Stones :devil:

The smart thing to do would be to send him to Earth through the Stargate. Let him rot in a basement in Area 51. That way, he'd be too far away from any other Wraith to communicate with them telepathically. And even if he escaped from Area 51, it would be nearly impossible for him to find and reach the SGC, reach the Gateroom, and decipher the SGC dialing computer to get back to the Pegasus Galaxy. Worst case scenario: He escapes and occasionally picks off campers in the wilderness.
Or to another planet in the Milky Way. Uninhabited preferably. Take away the gate and he's stuck there.

Actually he would be stuck on the planet even if the gate was still there, remember Michael wouldn't know any Milky Way addresses.
 
The creation of Michael was a stupid concept IMO... And it created a villain of the worst kind. The moustache-twirling whiner that complains that the world hasn't treated him right. Over and over. Over and over.

Enough already. As you can tell Michael was my least favorite villain of the show.
 
Yeah, I couldn't watch that episode without thinking "What the hell?! Did they replace everyone on Atlantis with evil clones?!" Truly you had to suspend disbelief to really strong levels to buy the premise.

Still, I found Michael to be a fun villain. He laid out some awesome plans and he was almost always one step ahead of our heroes. Also, Connor really got to have some fun in the role and his end was still better than what happened on "Enterprise". :p
 
Well that was bizarre - I used to have that exact avatar, wicca, opening this thread was like a time warp :lol:
 
Worst case scenario: He escapes and occasionally picks off campers in the wilderness.

While listening to the Rolling Stones :devil:

The smart thing to do would be to send him to Earth through the Stargate. Let him rot in a basement in Area 51. That way, he'd be too far away from any other Wraith to communicate with them telepathically. And even if he escaped from Area 51, it would be nearly impossible for him to find and reach the SGC, reach the Gateroom, and decipher the SGC dialing computer to get back to the Pegasus Galaxy. Worst case scenario: He escapes and occasionally picks off campers in the wilderness.
Or to another planet in the Milky Way. Uninhabited preferably. Take away the gate and he's stuck there.

Actually he would be stuck on the planet even if the gate was still there, remember Michael wouldn't know any Milky Way addresses.
Yeah, but you just know some bumbling idiots would come through the gate, and he'd use his Wraith mental powers on them to dial out, then wind up challenging the Gouald for supremacy of the galaxy...and Cleveland.
 
The Wraith had a basic flaw as a villain, the premise left us in a box. We were their food source. Therefore there was absolutely nothing to negotiate or settle for. Eventually it would be total obliteration of a race, the Wraith or accept being knocked back to the stone age to make humanity and earth an easy ranch to cull the cattle from.

So TPTB had to find a way to "humanize" the enemy. To give him a reason to negotiate. Hence the humanization of the Wraith by creating Michael. Its kind of funny with the Tok'ra we know that it is possible for the Goul'a to find a compromise but according to Comtimuim with Baal the Sytem Lords were hunted to extinction. But I guess with the Tok'ra the race still survives.
 
I think it was wrong for us to do what we did, we don't have a right to go in and change a species into something else.
 
I thought it was an interesting episode that asked some important moral questions. The problem was that it required the characters to act either (a) stupidly, (b) completely out of character, or (c) both in order to carry out the story...
I agree it did raise interesting moral questions. Too bad those issues became peripheral.

... and in the end, Michael's ambiguous origins were discarded in favor of turning him into an evil, cardboard villain.
The saddest thing of all.

ETA:
Turning a Waith into a human may be a sound treatment had it worked. It would have made it possible for them to coexist with the rest of the population instead of eating them.
Actually, I think it could have worked eventually.
What I don't understand is that none of the Atlanteans seemed to notice (in Vengeance) that Michael had retained more of his human characteristics after the second retrovirus treatment he received in Misbegotten.
 
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Frankly, I still don't understand why he wanted to be Wraith even before any traits started coming back back in his first episode, just because he found out he used to be one. I mean, what the hell? "Well, you all seem nice enough now that I've gotten to know you, but I want to eat you all just on general principles. I don't even have my bloodlust back yet!"
 
Frankly, I still don't understand why he wanted to be Wraith even before any traits started coming back back in his first episode, just because he found out he used to be one. I mean, what the hell? "Well, you all seem nice enough now that I've gotten to know you, but I want to eat you all just on general principles. I don't even have my bloodlust back yet!"
So, if a bunch of scientists took you away from your family and performed a genetic experiment on you to see if they could re-create an earlier hominid, you wouldn't be livid when you found out you had been turned into a lab rat?
 
Probably not, because I'd be an earlier hominid, presumably surrounded by earlier hominids, whom I'd previously had no compunction about killing, but who were progressive enough to try to find a way to stop me that didn't involve shooting me in the head. And given that I'd have no memory of my earlier self...

I'm not saying I wouldn't be bothered. I'm saying I wouldn't want to drink the blood of those responsible, especially given they were specifically trying not to kill me. Now, granted, the way everything turned out, everyone would've been happier if they'd just pumped to-be-Michael full of bullets like any other Wraith of the week, but if it were me, given the astropolitical situation, I'd probably appreciate their attempts to find a nonviolent solution, especially given that, without my memories, I wouldn't have the natural wraith arrogance that says humans deserve to be eaten for having the audacity to have evolved naturally, rather than being a freak of nature resulting from a bug getting frisky with the wrong sack of amniotic fluid.

Honestly, I would've much preferred if they'd put a stop to his endless whining by just putting him up in front of a firing squad and explaining that he could either be made to no longer need to feed on humans, or he could be shot in the head. His choice. But I guess that would be more of a Battlestar Galactica solution to the problem. It really, really irritated me, though, that no one ever once impressed on Michael that as far as they were concerned, he was Old Yeller after he got bit by the wolf, and he could either take his medicine or be put down, and those were the only options he or any other Wraith would ever have.
 
Thanks for reviving debate on one of the only elements of SG:A that presented an interesting dilemma and was worth debating. If only they'd figured out a better way to handle it. ;)

As a doctor he has sworn to do no harm and he, as well as every member of the expedition, should know that the Geneva Convention strictly says that "no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest".
The Geneva Convention can hardly be sensibly applied to a species whose existence requires them to kill people, and which any form of co-existence is therefore impossible. The war between humans and Wraith can only be solved by genocide of the Wraith - what other possible goal would work for humans?

Beckett's experiment could be seen as a creative attempt out of this horrible dilemma. Change the Wraith so that they no longer need to eat humans and co-existence becomes possible. The writers were simply being honest with the situation to have Michael not regard being de-Wraithed as a suitable solution. It would be far too convenient and not convincing if he had gone along with the idea. The Wraith as a species should value being Wraith; otherwise they have no integrity as characters.

The real problem with this episode was that Our Heroes were being massively stupid. Before anyone embarked on this experiment, they should have considered all outcomes, including failure. If the experiment fails, what do they do? Kill Michael, of course. They would have killed him anyway, while a Wraith. Even if he looks human, if he continues to be a threat, they must kill him. If they don't have the stomach to murder a being who looks human in cold blood - don't do the experiment!!!

By failing to think the whole thing through, they set in motion events that continue to get worse and worse for them. In retrospect, they shouldn't have even tried the experiment, but I can't fault them for the basic notion of wanting to try a solution that's not genocide.

And the alternative comply or die that they gave him at the end of the episode was just an incentive for him to escape and to create further problems.
Michael's reaction should have told them that, to him, being de-Wraithed is genocide. You may as well just kill all the Wraith - you're exterminating their species by other means. It's not an acceptable solution, but since that didn't become apparent till they saw Michael's reaction, it's not a bad thing that they tried.

While humanity is entitled to fight back against the Wraith, they don't have the right to mutilate them in this way without their consent.
It's a kill-or-be-killed situation. The only reasonable strategy is to exterminate the Wraith. Any solution, even "mutilation," would be more justifiable morally - assuming it worked. The problem with the Michael experiment is that it didn't work, and was equivalent to simply killing Michael when he was a Wraith. To just kill him quickly is better than torturing him and then having to kill him anyway.

The evolution of the wraith wasn't a natural one
It really doesn't matter if it was or wasn't. They are a species that exists now, who values their existence, and that gives them a "right" to live just as much as humans.

However the humans they eat also have a right to live. This isn't a moral question since both sides are morally in the right - all species have a right to live and to eliminate threats to their existence. This is a pure power struggle having no moral dimension, so talk of Geneva Conventions etc are beside the point.

The Wraith had a basic flaw as a villain, the premise left us in a box. We were their food source.
In the hands of the right writers, that's not a flaw. But it does require writers to abandon some of the usual storytelling tropes, such as the morality tale. Stargate writers just weren't imaginative or rule-breaking enough to handle the topic. Ron Moore might have made something out of it.
Frankly, I still don't understand why he wanted to be Wraith
Why do you want to be a human? All beings are going to want to be what they are. That seems like a given.

I wouldn't have the natural wraith arrogance that says humans deserve to be eaten for having the audacity to have evolved naturally, rather than being a freak of nature resulting from a bug getting frisky with the wrong sack of amniotic fluid.
Why would a Wraith not value his own species simply because of the means by which that species evolved? Humans evolved just because an asteroid wiped out some dinosaurs 65M years ago. Why do we have a "right" to survive? We owe our existence to nothing more than random chance.

Honestly, I would've much preferred if they'd put a stop to his endless whining by just putting him up in front of a firing squad and explaining that he could either be made to no longer need to feed on humans, or he could be shot in the head.
I thought that was more or less what they did (in a sideways sort of way). They tried a solution that they thought wasn't genocide and found that the "beneficiaries" or at least one representative regarded it as genocide in disguise. Which it is. Shoot them or change their DNA, you're wiping out the species. Michael was refreshingly clear-sighted about the situation and didn't allow the Atlanteans to continue to be willfully blind to what they were doing.

It really, really irritated me, though, that no one ever once impressed on Michael that as far as they were concerned, he was Old Yeller after he got bit by the wolf, and he could either take his medicine or be put down, and those were the only options he or any other Wraith would ever have.

The writers were scared to call a spade a spade (or maybe didn't fully grasp the implications of their premise). They set up a premise that had no moral dimension and had to be a war of genocide, yet consistently danced around that issue. That's just a function of the mindless way in which Stargate has always been written. They just follow the expected Star Trek tropes, even in situations where they don't apply, and where the story would be far more interesting if they didn't apply.
 
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