Waters of Mars Comment & Grading SPOILERS

[cultcross]

Ok....but then it was a fixed point in time that Pete Tyler died, that he died in a certain place and that he died alone.

Rose changed things, and I know brought down the Reapers as a result but, once the normal flow of time was restored things were altered, things the Doctor knew about in advance.

Now it may be that it was a tiny thing (the location of Pete's death and the fact that there was a mysterious blonde with him) but it was a change nontheless, and in fact quite a major change since a large part of Rose's desire to be with him when he died came out from the fact that she hated the fact he died alone. Well he didn't die alone, and we see Jackie telling Rose this so....

Oh don't get me started!

But I think the point is that's not a 'fixed point' - we're talking very specific events which have this property of inevitability - it doesn't just refer to historical events in general which the Doctor alters, it refers to events such as Pompeii, which, even though he tries to help, happen anyway - they are inevitable, unchangeable, fixed events in time - not all events or even, it seems, many, have this property. Rose changing Pete Tyler's death changed the future, but it didn't break this rule because his death wasn't one of these pivotal events.

 

[Australis]

Hmm. We don't know enough about Pete to say if he would have changed the future if he'd lived. But in Pete's World, he was an inventor and a linchpin against the Cybermen. So if he'd lived in Rose's world, he may have changed things in a big way.

WW1. Agree about the labyrinthine maze of treaties, Princip was just the guy who tipped over the first domino. But if it had held off, as others said above, the results may have been very different, especially if worse weapons had been added. And, as I said, holding off may have changed the course of the Russian Revolution as well, and all that would have entailed.

 

[Mr Awe]

So why did it drop him at an event he wasn't supposed to take part in?

I wondered about this as well. Either this will never be explained or it'll be part of the antagonist of the next story's plan to bring about the title of the next story.

Mr Awe

 

[Starkers]

Ok....but then it was a fixed point in time that Pete Tyler died, that he died in a certain place and that he died alone.

Rose changed things, and I know brought down the Reapers as a result but, once the normal flow of time was restored things were altered, things the Doctor knew about in advance.

Now it may be that it was a tiny thing (the location of Pete's death and the fact that there was a mysterious blonde with him) but it was a change nontheless, and in fact quite a major change since a large part of Rose's desire to be with him when he died came out from the fact that she hated the fact he died alone. Well he didn't die alone, and we see Jackie telling Rose this so....

Oh don't get me started!

But I think the point is that's not a 'fixed point' - we're talking very specific events which have this property of inevitability - it doesn't just refer to historical events in general which the Doctor alters, it refers to events such as Pompeii, which, even though he tries to help, happen anyway - they are inevitable, unchangeable, fixed events in time - not all events or even, it seems, many, have this property. Rose changing Pete Tyler's death changed the future, but it didn't break this rule because his death wasn't one of these pivotal events.

I dunno...personally I've always felt that, even if only subconciously, Rose only went with the Doctor for a chance to go back and see her dad--it's really obvious at the end of Rose:

Do you wanna travel in space?

Nah

It also travels in time?

Oh go on then...

For me Pete's death was pivotal, because it impacted Rose's entire development as a person and a character.

 

[Mr Awe]

Even if the grand daughter wasn't inspired, all that means is someone else would've piloted the FTL ship. No big deal. Just change the wikipedia details like we saw in this story. Humans have that drive to expand. If one person doesn't do it, another will.

Mr Awe

The episode clearly implies that Adelaide's grand daughter is very important.

Again, I just don't buy it and that detracted. I realize that the story implies that the grand daughter was crucial for this. But, human's seem programed to spread out and colonize. We're going to do it with, or without, the grand daughter. If she's not going to pilot the ship, there are plenty of other pilots around. Even if that particular mission is a failure, humans are persistant and will try more. We'd succeed eventually and the grand scheme of things would remain the same. Only the specifics of names would change. Perhaps dates slightly.

Mr Awe

 

[Starkers]

So why did it drop him at an event he wasn't supposed to take part in?

I wondered about this as well. Either this will never be explained or it'll be part of the antagonist of the next story's plan to bring about the title of the next story.

Mr Awe

Whilst a lot of time the TARDIS takes the Doctor where he needs to go, it doesn't always...we just don't see much about the non-dramatic trips!

 

[Starkers]

Even if the grand daughter wasn't inspired, all that means is someone else would've piloted the FTL ship. No big deal. Just change the wikipedia details like we saw in this story. Humans have that drive to expand. If one person doesn't do it, another will.

Mr Awe

The episode clearly implies that Adelaide's grand daughter is very important.

Again, I just don't buy it and that detracted. I realize that the story implies that the grand daughter was crucial for this. But, human's seem programed to spread out and colonize. We're going to do it with, or without, the grand daughter. If she's not going to pilot the ship, there are plenty of other pilots around. Even if that particular mission is a failure, humans are persistant and will try more. We'd succeed eventually and the grand scheme of things would remain the same. Only the specifics of names would change. Perhaps dates slightly.

Mr Awe

Ok, how about if Neil Armstrong wasn't the first man on the moon...how about if it was Ivan Borenkovitch? Wouldn't that change history as we know it?

Only the specifics of the names would change and maybe the dates slightly? I don't buy that I'm afraid. Tiny changes would impact greatly on the world. From one perspective the death of an unimportant little corporal in WW1 isn't important...but from another perspective it's actually pivotal to the whole of the 20th Century!

Basically what you're saying is that no human in existance is remotely important. Because (for example) if Einstein hadn't come up with the theory of relativity someone else would have...eventually, and the world would have carried on unchanged? Seriously? If there'd been no Shakespeare someone else would have written the plays?

 

[Mr Awe]

^^^ A lot of this discussion comes down to how you view history. I think there are very few cases where individual people will affect the grand course of human history. I'm talking grand scheme of things.

You mention Armstrong. By switching countries, you're talking a bigger change than just Armstrong. There'd be a lot of other changes necessary for that change. You have to be careful about understand exactly what would have to change to bring about Armstrong not being the first man on the moon. You're talking about another country having the technological, financial, political will combined to get it done faster than the US. That's a lot of people that would have to be different.

Hitler played a large role but he fed upon the existing situation. If not him, someone else.

Someone would've come up with the Theory of Relativity eventually. Sure, delayed. But, again, if not Einstein, someone else. If no Shakespeare, well, you'd be silly to suggest that someone would write the same plays but I'm sure that someone would've written good literature! Good plays! If suddenly people were incapable of writing good plays you're talking about a larger change than just no Shakespeare!

I think people can affect history. And, those changes can be large from the perspective of the people living in or near those times. But, we're talking the grand course of human history. And, no, I don't think individuals bear much on that. Smaller history, on the scale of a century, sure. Longer than that, the effect of individuals diminishes greatly and continues to diminish with longer time scales.

Mr Awe

 

[Lindley]

And for the most part, Doctor Who agrees with that view. The Doctor always says after he fixes something that things will go back on course shortly.

However, in such a massively complex web of interactions, probability theory states that there is a nonzero possibility that eventually a single node in the web (or group of nodes) will play a pivotal role. Such times are rare, but expected. And those would be the fixed points.

 

[Samurai8472]

Whilst a lot of time the TARDIS takes the Doctor where he needs to go, it doesn't always...we just don't see much about the non-dramatic trips!

I was hoping for a psychic paper moment

"I was summoned here" etc

like "Silence in the Library"

 

[tomalak301]

Just saw it last night. Excellent stuff, and very glad I just saw a new episode of Doctor Who. It's been so long (And Torchwood: Children of Earth just isn't the same) that even if it was just the Doctor in the Tardis the whole time I probably still would have enjoyed it.

Seriously, I really liked this, even though I agree that the plot was a little thin. They could have done a better job developing the situation, but I think the point was pretty much yes this is the end of 10 and we need to get him from that loveable figure that he became to someone who is about ready to accept his fate. Those final 10 minutes when he was realizing what he can do (And they finally showed in 4 seasons of this show why they are even called Time Lords and why I really should care about the whole "Time Lord" concept) was great. It was almost like a regeneration but on a mental level. This wasn't the same guy we have seen for 3 seasons. I can't wait till End of Time and really getting deeper into this development.

I did have a minor quibble though regarding those ending parts. It seemed like a big jump to conclusion that because he altered history he assumed he was going to die. It was like instead of going from A to B, he went from A to Z. Of course he's been told twice what is fate is going to be, but it was still a huge jump to conclusion.

As for the rest of it, it was ok. The water aliens were kinda creepy, but not all that well developed (Again, new watcher of the series so all this talk about Ice Warriors and when they last appeared doesn't apply to me). The characters, especially Brooke were, just there, but I did like the flashback to the Dalek and those calm moments between her and the Doctor. Still though, this episode was a bridge between what we already know, and what we're going to find out, and on that level, it worked very well.

 

[Cutter John]

He's been told about his pending fate three times actually. The Ood, the psychic woman in PotD, and by the Trickster on SJA. I was wondering when he was going to start getting a little paranoid.

Really though, the shows been dropping little snippets and signs that all that power was starting to go to his head for awhile now. He finally just snapped.

Just hope he can be un-snapped.

 

[tomalak301]

He's been told about his pending fate three times actually. The Ood, the psychic woman in PotD, and by the Trickster on SJA. I was wondering when he was going to start getting a little paranoid.

Really though, the shows been dropping little snippets and signs that all that power was starting to go to his head for awhile now. He finally just snapped.

Just hope he can be un-snapped.

I don't watch SJA, so in my personal canon, it's been twice.

 

[Mr Awe]

And for the most part, Doctor Who agrees with that view. The Doctor always says after he fixes something that things will go back on course shortly.

However, in such a massively complex web of interactions, probability theory states that there is a nonzero possibility that eventually a single node in the web (or group of nodes) will play a pivotal role. Such times are rare, but expected. And those would be the fixed points.

I guess that's a good interpretation of that. If WoM was supposed to portray such a situation, it didn't work in my view. Better writing could've fixed that. YMMV. But, I'd agree that's a good way to look at fixed points.

Mr Awe

 

[Meredith]

He told her the story about her and the Dalek, something only she and her daughter were supposed to know.

No, she told the story herself. The Doctor added the explanation of why the Dalek let her be.

Mr Awe

Which is full of shit becuse the Daleks moved Earth, came back from a locked time war and planned to wipe creation. The Daleks were going to kill everyone, the planet, the universe but not Adelie because she commanded the first martian base! ..please!! sloppy writing RTD

She wasn't spared, the exact time was when Davros called back all of the Daleks to the crucible....

 

[Saul]

Kinda slow episode at the beginning and a a fantastic last 15 minutes. Wonder where it's all going to lead. Had some nit picks with the Doctors memory resembling bbc news website and how the surviors could explain getting back to Earth. The Doctor certainly looked afraid as if a higher power was coming for him, it's like a child realizing his parents are going be pissed when they get home.

 

[ParticleMan]

I didn't mind the "Am I going to die?" business with the Doctor at the end...I didn't think that he really thought that he'd die right then, but that at that point, he realized just what a colossal mistake he'd made by going all Timelord Victorious...

I didn't mind the progression that we've seen either that led to that decision. The loneliness and isolation of being the Last Time Lord has been getting to him for a while...couple that with the issues with companions and what happened with Davros and the Daleks in Journey's End and it makes sense for him to be fraying in the mental department. Maybe too this is what happens when you short circuit a regeneration...

All in all, I think it is moving towards a good reason for the TARDIS and probably other parts of the Who universe to "reset" in preparation for Moffat and the 11th Doc taking over...

 

[davejames]

I absolutely loved the idea of the episode, but I have to agree with most that the execution wasn't the strongest. They did a GREAT job establishing a sense of foreboding, when the Doctor realizes these people didn't have long to live, and the water aliens were pretty threatening at first... but after awhile it became clear there just wasn't a lot of meat there. And the alien's magical "water powers" started to seem a bit silly too.

The ending does a lot to redeem the episode, although I didn't entirely buy the extreme arrogance displayed by the Doctor. Defying the laws of time and saying "tough" to Adelaide is one thing, but going on to gloat about how important and great he is seemed way out of character (at least for Tennant's doc).

Still, overall I found it a fairly enjoyable episode. And thankfully it looks a lot more re-watchable than the last one.

 

[Starkers]

^^^ A lot of this discussion comes down to how you view history. I think there are very few cases where individual people will affect the grand course of human history. I'm talking grand scheme of things.

You mention Armstrong. By switching countries, you're talking a bigger change than just Armstrong. There'd be a lot of other changes necessary for that change. You have to be careful about understand exactly what would have to change to bring about Armstrong not being the first man on the moon. You're talking about another country having the technological, financial, political will combined to get it done faster than the US. That's a lot of people that would have to be different.

Hitler played a large role but he fed upon the existing situation. If not him, someone else.

Someone would've come up with the Theory of Relativity eventually. Sure, delayed. But, again, if not Einstein, someone else. If no Shakespeare, well, you'd be silly to suggest that someone would write the same plays but I'm sure that someone would've written good literature! Good plays! If suddenly people were incapable of writing good plays you're talking about a larger change than just no Shakespeare!

I think people can affect history. And, those changes can be large from the perspective of the people living in or near those times. But, we're talking the grand course of human history. And, no, I don't think individuals bear much on that. Smaller history, on the scale of a century, sure. Longer than that, the effect of individuals diminishes greatly and continues to diminish with longer time scales.

Mr Awe

I would disagree that the impact of individuals diminishes over time, if anything the potential is for it to increase.

Remove some peasant from medeval England, for instance, the initial impact is minimal/ However say he would have fathered two children, now they don't exist. The impact on the next generation is greater. Now obviously those two children would have had children...and so on and so far. Most family trees get wider and wider the further down you go. Now you could remove a peasant and history won't be appreciably changed, but you could remove a peasant-a nobody- and suddenly thousands of people would have never existed. Now imagine all the people whose lives those thousands would have imapcted upon. The people they didn't kill in battle, the people they didn't save, the people they didn't bully at school who went on to make something of themselves, the people they didn't inspire, the people they didn't stifle...I'm not saying humanity would have ground to a halt, but things would have potentially happened very differently.

 

[Pauln6]

He's been told about his pending fate three times actually. The Ood, the psychic woman in PotD, and by the Trickster on SJA. I was wondering when he was going to start getting a little paranoid.

Really though, the shows been dropping little snippets and signs that all that power was starting to go to his head for awhile now. He finally just snapped.

Just hope he can be un-snapped.

And the Ood vision and cloister bell are reminiscent of the Watcher in Logopolis who heralded Tom Baker giving way to Peter Davidson (stated to be Tennant's favourite Doctor).