The Official: What do Niners Feel About Enterprise

[Disillusioned]

The Borg are basically Trek's version of zombies. Initially they were the traditional slow shambling zombies, and the way they won was simply through overwhelming numbers and that neat shield trick they did that actually made them even more dangerous than regular zombies which you could mow down as long as you had ammo. Then later, the zombies got faster, just like in the more recent zombie movies. And, just like the more recent zombie movies, people who liked the older versions of them tend to criticize them. When it comes to the queen, I tend to agree on that point because it wouldn't make any sense to have some kind of a leader to interact with the characters for the zombies. Whereas the zombies wander around looking for brains, the Borg wander around looking for people and technology to integrate into themselves. An enemy that is relentless, can't be reasoned with, is very difficult to defeat, and may not even be possible to entirely destroy.

 

[Anwar]

And stinks as anything other than a background enemy, or if they are played off another more conventional foe.

 

[TheGodBen]

They were just a plot device antagonist Q was using to teach Picard a lesson in "Q Who?", any random super-power race would have worked out in that role with any kind of gimmick.

Except the Borg were planned in advance, Q Who was intended to be their introductory episode. They needed a new villain because the Ferengi weren't working out, so Maurice Hurley came up with the idea of a hive-minded insect species plotting to take over the Federation from afar. Conspiracy was the first of his planned trilogy, The Neutral Zone was the second part (the missing Federation and Romulan colonies), but the third part of the story was scrapped because they couldn't afford the special effects to do an insect species. But Maurice Hurley still wanted to have a hive-minded villain, so he compromised by making them cybernetic and cut off any connection between them and the Conspiracy insects.

The Borg weren't created as a plot device for Q Who, Q Who was written specifically to introduce The Borg.

An actual individual the characters interact with is the selling point. What would the Dominion be like if we never had a talking Founder, a talking Vorta or a talking Jem'Hadar and just had everything about them just be shooting at the Ds9 cast while getting simple verbal messages?

The Dominion wasn't based around the concept of a collective consciousness, they were intended to be an anti-Federation. The Borg were intended to be a faceless force of nature, the Dominion were not.

"Faceless Force" only works once or twice, and since "Regeneration" WAS the second time they were truly used as a faceless force that's why it worked. It wouldn't go a third time.

And what mathematical formula did you use to derive that number?

I don't have a problem with giving the Borg a face, Locutus worked very well as the mouthpiece of the collective, and Seven developed into an interesting character. What I don't like, and what others don't like, is that the Queen was not used as a mouthpiece for the collective consciousness, she was clearly in charge of the Borg. That went against the thing which made the Borg so interesting, that they were a collection of billions of minds forming one will as opposed to one mind imposing its will upon the others.

And yet neither of them died. None of the secondary characters (or characters at all) that really mattered died until the end if they died at all.

Several secondary cast members died in seasons 2 and 3. Three of them died in the later half of season 4, and those deaths stemmed naturally from the situation they found themselves in.

Double Standard.

That doesn't even make sense in reference to what I said. Are you just saying that at random intervals now?

The Maquis would just have their "I hate the Feds/Janeway" flimsy justification, and any reason for rebelling against Janeway that would be justified would just be based on contrived actions she took to piss them off in the first place, not "natural organic characterization".

Only if the writers on Voyager were crap. Are you saying that the writers on Voyager were crap?

You know what's contrived? A mob boss who suffers a serious panic attack because he feels sad when some ducks fly away. However, great writing made that into the basis of one of the best shows ever made. You know what else is contrived? An American President deciding to run for re-election after revealing to the public that he lied about his health in order to win the election because he had a conversation with his dead secretary. Great writing made that into one of the greatest television scenes of all time.

Great writing can make even the crappest concept work. And a mutiny based upon principled arguments isn't even a crap idea, it's a damn good one.

I never liked the characters very much so it fell flat for me, so I was extra disappointed with the lame plot resolution.

Well fine, but the general consensus among people who did like the show is that Daybreak provided a good resolution for the characters, most of the complaints are centred around plot resolution.

Amazing what talking with you can do to a person, hm?

Not really, I'm a fairly impressive guy. My impact upon other people is at least 2.5 times greater than the average person.

Yes, I'm smug, and I'm unbearable,

Good, now YOU'RE doing some needed "growing up".

I've felt that way about myself long before I came to this board. I've happily been smug and unbearable for 8 or 9 years.

And you'll just do something obnoxious and insulting again prompting me to post again to shut the smug out of here.

I didn't even post anything to make you come back' you said you were done, Kestrel posted something in response to something else you had said and you came back. So don't blame me that you're still here, it's either your fault or Kestrel's.

Here's a hint; it's not Kestrel's fault.

So while BSG has a broad ensemble with different layers of importance, VOY has a static ensemble of seven mains and a sea of faceless redshirts. What BSG did can't be done here, I's afraid.

Due to the way that Voyager seems to have been cast you're probably right. They had two opportunities to kill off main characters; the end of season three when everyone other than Mulgrew's contract ran out, and the end of season 5 when Mulgrew's contract did run out. And they were planning on killing Kim off before that now infamous magazine article mistook Wang for someone attractive.

And what if they missed the first episode with Carey? They wouldn't know who he was in the later episode.

I missed the first episode with Lt Carey, and the second, and the third. The sight of him in State of Flux did not cause me to descend into a confused, gibbering mess.

Yeah, I'd dispute that. I'd concede he wasn't a character until S4 despite appearing as early as S2 (and retconned into S1)...

He wasn't really retconned into season 1, Colm Meaney was around since Encounter at Farpoint, he just hadn't been given a name yet. At that point in time Trek hadn't developed a reputation for using the same actor for multiple roles.

 

[Disillusioned]

And stinks as anything other than a background enemy, or if they are played off another more conventional foe.

If you're not a fan of zombie movie, that's cool. Honestly no one should care if you aren't. I'm not a huge fan myself, but I can see the appeal and I can see why they used the concept for the Borg.

 

[Anwar]

The Borg weren't created as a plot device for Q Who, Q Who was written specifically to introduce The Borg.

And yet the main reason that episode worked was because it was a Q villain episode with the Borg as a plot device foe.

The Dominion wasn't based around the concept of a collective consciousness, they were intended to be an anti-Federation. The Borg were intended to be a faceless force of nature, the Dominion were not.

And faceless forces of nature are inherently boring as a recurring foe, unless you diversify the rogues gallery with other alien enemies. Unfortunately for VOY the audience hated all of their original creations which left them with nothing but the Borg.

I don't have a problem with giving the Borg a face, Locutus worked very well as the mouthpiece of the collective, and Seven developed into an interesting character. What I don't like, and what others don't like, is that the Queen was not used as a mouthpiece for the collective consciousness, she was clearly in charge of the Borg. That went against the thing which made the Borg so interesting, that they were a collection of billions of minds forming one will as opposed to one mind imposing its will upon the others.

Well, that's what happens when you reject every other antagonist: they have to use what they have left for roles they weren't designed for. There's nothing personal with the Collective, and stories require the antagonist to be more than some random force of nature. It's like making Superman fight tornadoes and getting rid of Lex Luthor or Brainiac.

Several secondary cast members died in seasons 2 and 3. Three of them died in the later half of season 4, and those deaths stemmed naturally from the situation they found themselves in.

They outlived their usefulness to the show and were disposed of, and it still didn't affect the show like killing off Bill Adama would have.

Only if the writers on Voyager were crap. Are you saying that the writers on Voyager were crap?

No, they were ridiculously constrained and achieving burn-out by that point, but they weren't crap.

You know what's contrived? A mob boss who suffers a serious panic attack because he feels sad when some ducks fly away. However, great writing made that into the basis of one of the best shows ever made. You know what else is contrived? An American President deciding to run for re-election after revealing to the public that he lied about his health in order to win the election because he had a conversation with his dead secretary. Great writing made that into one of the greatest television scenes of all time.

Those shows aren't sci-fi shows, so the audience is more willing to accept flimsy writing in mainstream programming. It's just double standard again.

Great writing can make even the crappest concept work.

Not really. Crap is crap, like a VOY mutiny.

And a mutiny based upon principled arguments isn't even a crap idea, it's a damn good one.

What principles? "We want to make a bee-line straight home for the next 70 years and destroy all your attempts at making it easier by studying phenomenon that could lessen our trip, and we'll kill you all to do it!" Crap is crap.

Well fine, but the general consensus among people who did like the show is that Daybreak provided a good resolution for the characters, most of the complaints are centred around plot resolution.

Plot is the central point, always has been always will be. And BSG failed.

I didn't even post anything to make you come back' you said you were done

Our argument, yes. Until you came back because you couldn't let go.

Kestrel posted something in response to something else you had said and you came back.

New argument.

Due to the way that Voyager seems to have been cast you're probably right. They had two opportunities to kill off main characters

Thanks for giving more evidence to Niners wanting VOY's cast killed off en-masse.

 

[TheGodBen]

And yet the main reason that episode worked was because it was a Q villain episode with the Borg as a plot device foe.

That was one of the reasons why the episode worked, it also worked because the Borg were an interesting foe by themselves and something we hadn't really seen in Star Trek at that point. I love Q in that episode, but I also love The Borg in that episode.

And faceless forces of nature are inherently boring as a recurring foe...

Then don't make them faceless, give them a mouthpiece, but don't make that mouthpiece their monarch.

Well, that's what happens when you reject every other antagonist: they have to use what they have left for roles they weren't designed for. There's nothing personal with the Collective, and stories require the antagonist to be more than some random force of nature.

If you can't write an episode about an unstoppable force of nature then don't include that force at all, write an episode about something else entirely. Having someone controlling The Borg in search of the incredibly vaguely defined "perfection" wasn't as interesting as The Borg controlling themselves.

They outlived their usefulness to the show and were disposed of, and it still didn't affect the show like killing off Bill Adama would have.

I never said they did, but killing off Chakotay or Kim wouldn't have had much impact on Voyager either.

No, they were ridiculously constrained and achieving burn-out by that point, but they weren't crap.

Burnout? The TNG writers maybe, but that only includes Piller (gone after 2 seasons) Jeri Taylor (gone after 4) Braga (gone after 6) and Menosky (missed the first 2, gone after 6). Kenneth Biller, Bryan Fuller, Michael Taylor, Lisa Klink, Raf Green, Mike Sussman, Robert Doherty and Nick Sagan were all Voyager staffers purely (Although Taylor and Klink did freelance some DS9 episodes).

Those shows aren't sci-fi shows, so the audience is more willing to accept flimsy writing in mainstream programming. It's just double standard again.

David Chase and Aaron Sorkin are bloody good writers who had great casts and production crews working for them, it had very little to do with a double standard in the audience. I mean, The West Wing was a boring show about smart people discussing politics, but Sorkin's style of writing made it interesting for a public that normally shied away from such shows. When he left and the writing changed the audience figures fell because it didn't feel like the same show anymore.

Not really. Crap is crap, like a VOY mutiny.

One man's meat...

What principles? "We want to make a bee-line straight home for the next 70 years and destroy all your attempts at making it easier by studying phenomenon that could lessen our trip, and we'll kill you all to do it!" Crap is crap.

Principles based upon the value of a life. Janeway was constantly setting off to explore random phenomena which had nothing to do with finding a way home, and sometimes that caused people to die. A conflict based upon finding the right balance between exploration and the safety of the crew would have been entertaining and thought provoking, instead it was relegated to one scene between Janeway and Seven in Random Thoughts, and it was only there so that Janeway could blow Seven off as being wrong.

Plot is the central point, always has been always will be. And BSG failed.

We watch television for different reasons, you and I. Character trumps plot in my estimation.

Our argument, yes. Until you came back because you couldn't let go.

I couldn't let go? I'm not trying to let go! I find this argument deeply amusing, and the more you talk around these parts the more likely it is that you'll burn yourself. I'm not interested in stopping until you change your ways or the mods decide to intervene. But if you genuinely want to stop there is absolutely nothing preventing you.

Thanks for giving more evidence to Niners wanting VOY's cast killed off en-masse.

Yup, and when I make the factually correct statement that American's have the opportunity to elect a new president in 2012 what I'm actually advocating is the assassination of Obama and his cabinet.

 

[Anwar]

That was one of the reasons why the episode worked, it also worked because the Borg were an interesting foe by themselves and something we hadn't really seen in Star Trek at that point. I love Q in that episode, but I also love The Borg in that episode.

It was their first real appearance, and they had an established and well-written true villain to be played off of. THAT was why it worked.

Then don't make them faceless, give them a mouthpiece, but don't make that mouthpiece their monarch.

The mouthpiece gets boring after a while too, since there's no real interaction or maneuvering between the mouthpiece and the characters aside from the usual "you will be assimilated" stuff. The Borg are just fundamentally boring as true villains.

If you can't write an episode about an unstoppable force of nature then don't include that force at all, write an episode about something else entirely.

They had to do episodes requiring antagonists, and since the haters rejected every last one of their own creations they had only one option.

Kenneth Biller, Bryan Fuller, Michael Taylor, Lisa Klink, Raf Green, Mike Sussman, Robert Doherty and Nick Sagan were all Voyager staffers purely (Although Taylor and Klink did freelance some DS9 episodes).

Which still leaves the major UPN meddling and the near-burned-out Producers/Story Editors on said staff.

David Chase and Aaron Sorkin are bloody good writers who had great casts and production crews working for them

Also their shows aren't sci-fi, which means better mainstream appeal and larger numbers from the get-go.

A conflict based upon finding the right balance between exploration and the safety of the crew would have been entertaining and thought provoking

"Safety of the crew" consisting of some extremists blathering on about them just making a straight bee-line for the AQ and ignoring everything around them, like the stuff that would increase their chances of getting home or living to the next month in some cases. Still dumb.

Yup, and when I make the factually correct statement that American's have the opportunity to elect a new president in 2012 what I'm actually advocating is the assassination of Obama and his cabinet.

Don't bring the idea of political assassination into this, it makes you look desperate and flippant about murder.

But anyways, talking about how they "had the chance to kill off major characters" while also mentioning that you found the cast boring/useless. Implication that you wanted them to kill them all off.

How would you like it if season by season they randomly killed off everyone in DS9's main cast until by the end they were all dead (and not noble heroic deaths but just random deaths that had nothing to do with the War)? And don't give me any BS about "well if it was a well-written death" stuff.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I would rank ENT about 3 or 4 among the 5 shows.

The idea and early descriptions of what the show would be like intrigued me. "Broken Bow" was a solid pilot that got the show off on the right foot.

Like VOY, it wasn't the lack of arc storytelling that was its problem--it was the bland characters and poor writing.

I wouldn't mind if it was purely episodic just as long the stories were entertaining and for the most part in those first two seasons they weren't. They were stories that had been done before on other Trek shows and were done much better.

Season three was uneven but overall an enjoyable ride. When it stuck to the arc material it was good or even great but the filler stuff was dull as could be. It did remind me of DS9's Final Chapter in a lot of ways and that's a good thing. The writers realized that if the characters couldn't hold our attention then they could make the stories/plots fun and compelling. It was the first time I had also ran across a show that adopted the puzzle approach of storytelling--the Xindi arc was almost like a prototype of Lost where there are tons of questions that are answered over the course of the season.

This continued over into season four which was also good.

 

[Anwar]

Anyways, I'm not a Niner but my opinion of ENT was that it had an okay cast and nice production values. But I don't like prequels so I never got past the "watch occasionally" level of entertainment.

 

[seigezunt]

I've only seen the first season so far, and love it.

 

[happydave]

I've only seen the first season so far, and love it.

You'll probably end up loving all of ENT then as the first two seasons are the ones people have the most trouble with.

 

[Thestral]

I didn't even post anything to make you come back' you said you were done, Kestrel posted something in response to something else you had said and you came back. So don't blame me that you're still here, it's either your fault or Kestrel's.

Here's a hint; it's not Kestrel's fault.

I never get to be the villain.

There's nothing personal with the Collective, and stories require the antagonist to be more than some random force of nature. It's like making Superman fight tornadoes and getting rid of Lex Luthor or Brainiac.

That's a terrible analogy. Superman can't be threatened by tornadoes (unless it's a Magic-Lightning-Shooting Tornado? ); a better analogy would be making Batman fight tornadoes without his utility belt, any resources, or time to plan. Oh, and the tornado has to be malevolently chasing after him as well.

Because that's the other side of the whole "Borg as force of nature" thing. They're not just a force of nature, capricious and random. They're a force of nature that is actively malevolent and intentionally threatening to Our Heroes. But it's not personal, and it's not an emotional malevolence.

 

[Kegg]

Since some people seem to be actually talking about ENT for a bizarre change of pace, I guess I'd say this (with the proviso that I don't consider myself a Niner):

There wasn't a single regular on ENT as good as the Doctor on VOY. Or even close. This is a big issue for me as regards the show's watchability - even at VOY's worst, there was Picardo's affable character around to raise the bar.

However, there wasn't a single season of VOY as good as ENT S4. True, it's pure fanboyism, but it was overall a lot of fun.

He wasn't really retconned into season 1, Colm Meaney was around since Encounter at Farpoint, he just hadn't been given a name yet. At that point in time Trek hadn't developed a reputation for using the same actor for multiple roles.

Well, Colm Meaney was there, but his turns as a redshirted conn officer and yellowshirted security officer were glorified extra roles. In S2 he was given the constant role of transporter chief and his character got a name; and then by S4 he'd got an episode centering on his character.

And there are a couple of minor roles in TOS played by the same actor. One of the bit players, Galloway, got killed off, and before you know it the extra appears as Lieutenant Johnson.

 

[DevilEyes]

At that point in time Trek hadn't developed a reputation for using the same actor for multiple roles.

And there are a couple of minor roles in TOS played by the same actor. One of the bit players, Galloway, got killed off, and before you know it the extra appears as Lieutenant Johnson.

*cough* Mark Lenard *cough* Diana Muldaur

 

[Anwar]

The spiritual predecessors to Jeffrey Combs and Vaughn Armstrong.

 

[TheGodBen]

It was their first real appearance, and they had an established and well-written true villain to be played off of. THAT was why it worked.

I disagree, if the Enterprise had just stumbled across the cube on their own it still would have been a great episode. The only problem was that they would have needed to escape via their own ingenuity, whereas what made Q Who so great was that they weren't in a position to take on The Borg, they needed Q to escape, but it wasn't Q's personality which made The Borg great.

The mouthpiece gets boring after a while too, since there's no real interaction or maneuvering between the mouthpiece and the characters aside from the usual "you will be assimilated" stuff. The Borg are just fundamentally boring as true villains.

That's not what happened with Locutus, he was interesting to watch while being a mouthpiece of the collective. They tried to do the same with Seven in Scorpion, but she kept snarling and shouting too much.

Which still leaves the major UPN meddling and the near-burned-out Producers/Story Editors on said staff.

And what about the near burned-out Producers/Story Editors on DS9's staff? They were still managed to get good episodes out of contrived situations, so why do you have no faith in the Voyager writers?

Also their shows aren't sci-fi, which means better mainstream appeal and larger numbers from the get-go.

It doesn't change the fact that they were still bloody good writers, they had their faults (Sorkin had trouble keeping track of the secondary characters) but they were better than most of the other stuff on television. When Sorkin left The West Wing it was very noticable, the entire show seemed to change and lots of people stopped watching.

"Safety of the crew" consisting of some extremists blathering on about them just making a straight bee-line for the AQ and ignoring everything around them, like the stuff that would increase their chances of getting home or living to the next month in some cases. Still dumb.

So you have no consideration for human life? Anyone who tries to prevent deaths is an "extremist"?

How did exploring the nebula in Alter Ego possibly help Voyager get home? Making first contact with the Tak Tak in Macrocosm helped them get home how?

Don't bring the idea of political assassination into this, it makes you look desperate and flippant about murder.

You're the one getting desperate and accusing me of advocating mass murder. I was pointing out how absurd you are being.

But anyways, talking about how they "had the chance to kill off major characters" while also mentioning that you found the cast boring/useless. Implication that you wanted them to kill them all off.

Only if you're prone to jumping to conclusions.

How would you like it if season by season they randomly killed off everyone in DS9's main cast until by the end they were all dead (and not noble heroic deaths but just random deaths that had nothing to do with the War)? And don't give me any BS about "well if it was a well-written death" stuff.

I'd think that would be crap, which is why I have only ever advocated killing off one or two characters. And if you were to go to the extreme end of the spectrum with a show like Lost, where they kill off 2 or 3 characters a year, it didn't affect my affections for that show. The only time I've had a problem with it was the most recent death, because it wasn't well written, it was treated as a plot point rather than an emotional death.

So yeah, I guess my answer is "if it was a well-written death..."

*cough* Mark Lenard *cough* Diana Muldaur

I know, I remembered Mark Lenard after turning off my PC and I felt like a right eejit.

 

[Anwar]

I disagree, if the Enterprise had just stumbled across the cube on their own it still would have been a great episode. The only problem was that they would have needed to escape via their own ingenuity, whereas what made Q Who so great was that they weren't in a position to take on The Borg, they needed Q to escape, but it wasn't Q's personality which made The Borg great.

It was him using them basically as his own plot device to teach Picard a lesson. Any random powerful alien race would've worked, the Crystalline Entity would have worked. That wasn't a true Borg episode because they were secondary to the real antagonist.

That's not what happened with Locutus, he was interesting to watch while being a mouthpiece of the collective. They tried to do the same with Seven in Scorpion, but she kept snarling and shouting too much.

Locutus worked because he was Picard turned into something else, that was the crux of his relationship to the crew. It wouldn't work with other mouthpieces/representatives unless each of them was also a captured crewmember assimilated. The Borg are fundamentally boring as regular villains.

And what about the near burned-out Producers/Story Editors on DS9's staff? They were still managed to get good episodes out of contrived situations, so why do you have no faith in the Voyager writers?

They were syndicated and had fewer restrictions (Behr doesn't know what he's talking about when he does his whining), and they weren't burnt out compared to the VOY staff.

It doesn't change the fact that they were still bloody good writers,

The difference in shows is also a major factor, THE major factor in this case.

How did exploring the nebula in Alter Ego possibly help Voyager get home? Making first contact with the Tak Tak in Macrocosm helped them get home how?

Exploring the area, gathering energies and particles from said Nebula, and contacting locals in order to better local relations for resupply and information exchanges. Better than just bee-lining home to the expense of everything else.

You're the one getting desperate and accusing me of advocating mass murder. I was pointing out how absurd you are being.

You were the one who brought up the example of killing the President.

I'd think that would be crap

Then this is another double standard. You wouldn't want DS9's cast killed off, but have no problems implying that you wouldn't mind VOY's cast being killed off.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Unfortunately for VOY the audience hated all of their original creations which left them with nothing but the Borg.

Leaving aside the fact that this isn't true, since I've seen a load of Voyager episodes, including during the initial run and I liked the Vidiians plenty, do you really think it makes sense to blame the audience for Voyager's shortcomings?

 

[Evil Ezri]

Have to say Enterprise was not the best series in my judgment. Earth had too much of a dependence with Vulcan. Yes, I understand it can take over a century to recover from the aftermath of World War III. If it was only for that single reason, I would not have minded the 2150’s.

My feeling, the attack on Earth and the answer to the problem took way to long without it looking like weakness. Earth colonies with all the other series have been done in the past with thousands or millions of people being killed. There was no loss of fans and the episode was taken care of within a single episode. With Enterprise, it just felt like it was a bad idea and they just kept on repeating the same mistake.

 

[Thestral]

...do you really think it makes sense to blame the audience for Voyager's shortcomings?

Well obviously it's the fans' fault for not appreciating the brilliance that is Voyager. They should have repented of their sins and stopped destroying the beatific vision we were being presented. Instead they turned into corrupted evil Haters, irredeemable.