A little research project concerning Sisko

[flemm]

He HAD to have known Vic was alive--and ignored it because he didn't like the way Vic looked.

I disagree, not in the sense that your reasoning is flawed from an in-universe point of view, but because this is a case where we need to step back and unsuspend disbelief for a second.

Two things are happening in this episode. One is a silly bit of escapist entertainment. Actually, it is escapist entertainment within escapist entertainment, since this is one of those episodes that was meant as a break from the tension of the Dominion War.

The whole situation that imperils Vick is so contrived as to not be worth a second thought: it's just a pretext to get the crew together for this light-hearted caper in the holodeck, a variation on the "safety protocols have malfunctioned" theme.

The other thing that is going on is that somebody's malaise with how blithely utopian Trek tends to be is being expressed via Sisko's dislike for the Vic's lounge holodeck fantasy. Maybe it was Avery Brook's (probably, from what I gather), though I guess it could be the writer's, or just a desire to follow up on Far Beyond the Stars. So, this injects a would-be serious subplot into the episode.

The two don't mix effectively, but it doesn't follow that it makes sense to call out Sisko on his callousness toward holographic lifeforms. That's mistaking clumsy writing for psychology. For example, when Cassidy convinces Sisko, it isn't by reminding him that a sentient lifeform is in danger and he must respond. She just tells him to lighten up and play along. That's because that's what this episode is, just a lark, not unlike Take Me Out To the Holosuite.

The threat to Vic's life is not meant to be taken seriously, and is not taken seriously by the writers as they deal with the Sisko subplot: in these scenes it's just a question of whether Sisko will play with the rest of the kids in the sandbox or not.

One of the few DS9 episodes I would just as soon delete entirely.

 

[Timo]

Well, the threat to Vic's life was created by Felix the Programmer, and supposedly was intended as entertainment. Felix treated his own creation as something to be toyed with, lifeform or no lifeform; that was the nature of his business, building interesting toys.

In that sense, losing vs. not losing Vic was a rather trivial pursuit, yes. And it's not a big issue whether Sisko plays along or not. But the subject of this thread was Sisko's collection of vices - and an irrational perpetuating attitude towards factually bygone racism certainly is part of that collection.

Apart from that, I'm all for mixing moods in Star Trek episodes. More generally, my all-time favorite scifi episode is probably SG-1 "Window of Opportunity", which is a series of hilarious self-jokes wrapped around a cool scifi concept and capped with drama that comes completely from the left field and thus is all the more heart-wrenching - and totally works in terms of the personalities of the characters. "Badda-Bing" is much the same, even if mediocre: Sisko is very believable there. He just happens to be a small man in this particular respect. Which is consistent, fun and even halfway realistic, a good combo even if somewhat contrary to the conventions of TV scifi storytelling.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I have to say that I would've had a strong word or two with Felix myself--if you created something that had potential to quite literally come to life, and then put that kind of killswitch in there to destroy the life form you were responsible for bringing into this world, that's pretty sick.

But the thing is this. The more people on Vic's side, the more likely he was to survive. And all the writers' excuses aside, they needed to consider first how that was going to appear from an in-universe perspective, and in my opinion they completely failed. Sisko, in his personal resentments, was willing to see an alien life form suffer and die.

 

[flemm]

And all the writers' excuses aside, they needed to consider first how that was going to appear from an in-universe perspective, and in my opinion they completely failed. Sisko, in his personal resentments, was willing to see an alien life form suffer and die.

Right, but I think you are simply doing a better job of thinking this through than the writers did.

For example, wouldn't Cassidy also be guilty of extreme callousness because she doesn't treat the situation seriously? As I recall, she doesn't say to Sisko: "get your head out of your ass, a life is in danger, we need to act" or words to that effect. She treats it as a game, just telling Sisko to lighten up and play along.

Surely it is reprehensible to treat the whole situation as a playful diversion when a sentient being is in danger, or it would be, if the writers had considered that part of the scenario when writing those scenes. But I think it's pretty obvious they hadn't. Why would they have Sisko and Cassidy behave in such a heartless manner all of a sudden?

The only thing that is at stake in those scenes is whether or not Sisko will participate in that particular holodeck fantasy. Basically it's a case of writers not paying enough attention to their own premise.

 

[Timo]

The most obvious question for me here is, why didn't they call Felix to sort it out?

I mean, Bashir did call him. And he told Bashir this was a game. And Bashir is always in for such sick games, and O'Brien seems to tag along just fine. But when all sorts of other people became involved, including the station commander, why wasn't there a degree of Herbertism brought in as well?

That is, Sisko might have established that if things don't work out fine within the three hours he can spare for the game, Felix better fix his program or there'd be consequences.

Of course, it looks a bit as if Felix were specializing in trading stuff that you wouldn't find over the counter anywhere. Perhaps Sisko wasn't told of him? Perhaps Sisko couldn't reach him? (For all we know, Felix is an AI with good hiding skills.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Thestral]

So we can add being detrimentally insane to the list of Sisko's vices.

Why should we feel sympathy towards a person who snaps at Englishmen because he thinks he's the reincarnation of Napoleon I? Pity, perhaps. But sympathy? A 24th century man should fight his racist impulses, not endorse them, even if said impulses are the result of mental illness he can't help having. If Sisko fails to make the effort, then that's no different from not fighting alcoholism or violent urges.

Timo Saloniemi

I'd say it's highly unfair to Sisko to compare what he experienced as Benny Russell to George Patton's fantasy. After all, we don't treat Sisko's healing from Jennifer's death as a pleasant delusion. I don't see anything in Sisko's argument with Kas that indicates racism towards Vic, rather difficulty with how that particular time period is being portrayed. Remember this is a guy who perseverates over things when he gets hurt - he still blamed Picard for Jennifer's death years afterward, after all, and poisoned a Maquis planet to get Eddington to surrender, so I don't think it's out of character that he'd hold a grudge against 50's/60's Earth and unfairly lumps Vic in with that.

I'm also still not seeing any reason to believe Sisko knew Vic was an actual sentient being and not just a very good facsimile thereof. There was no indication he could be a threat to security, and he never left his holosuite.

 

[DevilEyes]

So we can add being detrimentally insane to the list of Sisko's vices.

Why should we feel sympathy towards a person who snaps at Englishmen because he thinks he's the reincarnation of Napoleon I? Pity, perhaps. But sympathy? A 24th century man should fight his racist impulses, not endorse them, even if said impulses are the result of mental illness he can't help having. If Sisko fails to make the effort, then that's no different from not fighting alcoholism or violent urges.

Timo Saloniemi

I'd say it's highly unfair to Sisko to compare what he experienced as Benny Russell to George Patton's fantasy. After all, we don't treat Sisko's healing from Jennifer's death as a pleasant delusion. I don't see anything in Sisko's argument with Kas that indicates racism towards Vic, rather difficulty with how that particular time period is being portrayed. Remember this is a guy who perseverates over things when he gets hurt - he still blamed Picard for Jennifer's death years afterward, after all, and poisoned a Maquis planet to get Eddington to surrender, so I don't think it's out of character that he'd hold a grudge against 50's/60's Earth and unfairly lumps Vic in with that.

I'm also still not seeing any reason to believe Sisko knew Vic was an actual sentient being and not just a very good facsimile thereof. There was no indication he could be a threat to security, and he never left his holosuite.

ITA. I was surprised by the accusation of racism or specism against Sisko for this, it never even occurred to me during the episode and I think they're unfounded. I don't think that Sisko even knew or considered Vic to be sentient - he didn't even know him, and his complaints were about the program itself, and for its false representation of history; in this case, something he was particularly sensitive to due to his Benny Russell experience. You don't think Kira would like a holosuite program that portrayed the Cardassian occupation as the time when Bajorans were happy and got along really well with their occupiers, do you?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

For example, wouldn't Cassidy also be guilty of extreme callousness because she doesn't treat the situation seriously? As I recall, she doesn't say to Sisko: "get your head out of your ass, a life is in danger, we need to act" or words to that effect. She treats it as a game, just telling Sisko to lighten up and play along.

The thing Kassidy has in her favor is that she is probably not privy to the same classified information that he is, and she doesn't have the reasons to be aware the Vic is alive, that he would.

(And after her gun-running for the Maquis, yes, I know Sisko loves her, but I would think that would put a damper on official information-sharing.)

 

[flemm]

The thing Kassidy has in her favor is that she is probably not privy to the same classified information that he is, and she doesn't have the reasons to be aware the Vic is alive, that he would.

She must know by that point, though, because she has been recruited by the others to help resolve the situation. Surely they would have told her a life was in danger. But by that time nobody is taking it seriously. There's a series of scenes where everybody is getting ready and, as I recall, nothing in anybody's attitude suggests that this is a life or death situation. It's just a night out on the holo-town.

Then there is the fact that, if this were serious business, it wouldn't be acceptable to rely on this all-or-nothing gambit in the holosuite. At least one team would have to be assigned to explore other options, such as contacting Felix or consulting other Federation experts on holographic technology.

I find that this episode simply stops making sense on any level if you start taking the threat to Vic's life seriously.

EDIT: I was reminded by another thread that Kira is sure Worf won't agree to help, and that Odo isn't sure Quark would help because he thinks of Vic as competition. Leaving aside the question of whether that is in character for Quark (as morally questionable as it would be), what excuse does Worf have? If we were talking about a mission to save a life, he would have none.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Considering that on VOY by that time already it was a foregone conclusion that the Doctor was sentient, that is pretty poor of the DS9 writers to completely forget that Vic was alive as well.

The Oceans-11 type plot is fun to watch, but overall, I have to say this episode is plagued by VERY poor writing.

 

[Ward Fowler]

My friend (who happens to be a vegan, enviro nut and anti-alcohol) and I were having a discussion about Sisko's virtues recently.

Sounds to me like you should choose your self-important friends a little more wisely. He sounds real fun.

 

[nx1701g]

But on the subject of drinking...probably his biggest "drinking" moment was at the end of "In the Pale Moonlight." That looked like a bourbon or some other kind of hard liquor.

He also drinks Romulan Ale with Senator Vreenak shortly after he arrives aboard the station.

 

[Corallis]

Hi folks,

So I have a bit of an odd request from the Niners here. My friend (who happens to be a vegan, enviro nut and anti-alcohol) and I were having a discussion about Sisko's virtues recently. He kept yapping about how he's the most virtuous man in the whole universe, yadda, yaddda, yadda. I told him he probably ate meat and drank, but he claimed he never did that in the entire show. So that brings me to my request. Does anybody know if he ever ate meat on camera or drank booze? And if so, could screenshots be provided? Think of this as a funny "caption this" type game. Thanks guys!

Not eating meat doesn't make one virtuous. If that was the case, Hitler would have been virtuous since he didn't eat meat. For the record, I'm anti alcohol myself, and even that doesn't make one virtuous.

I think I read that the Hitler's alleged vegetarianism was not actual and he did consume at least some meat products. Of course, whether or not this is the case matters little as the War and actions of the Nazi regime would still have occured no matter whether or not the Fuhrer ate meat. I personally am an ovo-lacto veggie who drinks infrequently, but I doubt I will be remembered as either the greatest moral icon who ever lived or history's greatest monster. It's not by any means a substantial measure of one's ethical fibre or integrity.

 

[Timo]

You don't think Kira would like a holosuite program that portrayed the Cardassian occupation as the time when Bajorans were happy and got along really well with their occupiers, do you?

Of course not. And that's largely because Kira is racist, too. Which obviously isn't such a bad thing, generally speaking. Some races just deserve to be hated, in a specific context, by specific people. Let's not forget that Kira is also an unrepenting terrorist, another worldview somewhat unjustly condemned nowadays...

I find that this episode simply stops making sense on any level if you start taking the threat to Vic's life seriously.

Agreed. And clearly Felix' angle here was that throwing sentients to the wolves is good entertainment as long as said sentients fall into a certain category. All our heroes seem to agree: all consider Vic's plight gladiator sports rather than a real-life problem. That's simply 24th century for ya.

And probably justly so. After all, Vic won't mind dying. He is a lifeform that can plausibly be killed a thousand times and then recovered for yet another entertaining death. And he won't mind it unless he's programmed to. If he's as self-aware as he claims, he must also know that he's immortal, a superior lifeform whose life isn't jeopardized by mere death.

Treating life on egalitarian basis is bound to fail to some degree at least when one deals with life as Star Trek knows it: created utterly inequal, and without us humans anywhere near the highest ladder to boot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Wow. That entire post is despicable from top to bottom. I hope it's sarcasm...

 

[DevilEyes]

You don't think Kira would like a holosuite program that portrayed the Cardassian occupation as the time when Bajorans were happy and got along really well with their occupiers, do you?

Of course not. And that's largely because Kira is racist, too.

Right, so only racists mind falsified history? Ooo-kay.

Let's not forget that Kira is also an unrepenting terrorist, another worldview somewhat unjustly condemned nowadays...

She is. And that has what exactly to do with the issue? A falsified history that showed a cruel occupation that included slavery, labor and sexual exploitation, widespread hunger and mass murder, and at least one clear case of genocide, as a lovely happy time when everyone got along, is something that everyone should like - except perhaps unrepentant terrorists?

Which obviously isn't such a bad thing, generally speaking. Some races just deserve to be hated, in a specific context, by specific people.

 

[Marie1]

Some races just deserve to be hated, in a specific context, by specific people. Let's not forget that Kira is also an unrepenting terrorist, another worldview somewhat unjustly condemned nowadays...

If it's actions in a specific context, by specific people, than it isn't a matter of race, or hating a race by anyone. That is wrong and discriminatory. Victims may hate those who victimized them, but it is an irrational fear that must be overcome to by extension hate the whole race.

Kira isn't quite unrepentant- she was friends with Tekeny, grew to respect Damar etc. I think she said what she did to the guy with the ruined face just because she was his prisoner.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I do also think we saw from Kira repentance in "Battle Lines," as well as other Season 1 episodes where she sided against terrorists who would not lay down their arms.

That said, though, there were also times where she showed a very nasty, intransigent attitude, like in "The Darkness and the Light," and things like that do indeed show her character in a very ugly light. And I am not going to shy away from that ugliness in the interests of some sort of political correctness.

 

[Thestral]

Well now, let's be fair. In "The Darkness and the Light," Kira's been seeing some of her oldest and dearest friends die, is being held captive, threatened with death, and is also extremely pregnant at the time and responsible thus for an unborn child; and this killer is playing games with her.

Let's take these things into consideration.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Did I say that I despised her character or thought she should have been killed, or any anything like that? No, I did not. I actually like her character overall. I said that where there is ugliness, I am not going to shy away from calling her on it.