USS Cortez? Really?

[T'Girl]

T'Girl--How many Americans were killed by the Imperial Japanese warship Kongo?

That was my point, you could name a starship after just about anything or one and there would be someone who could object.

USS Fuffy Bunny

Don't you realize the harm rabbits did to the ecology of Australia?

But I have a real problem naming things after the mass murderer commonly remembered as Christopher Columbus.

Did Columbus personally murder someone?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

you could name a starship after just about anything or one and there would be someone who could object.

Indeed. In TNG's time, there is a Starfleet ship called USS Gorkon. What do you think happened to it when the war with the Klingons broke out in DS9's season 4?

As for Cortez - big friggin' deal. Everybody keeps telling me I should believe in more gray areas? Well, time for THEM to step up to the plate. Was Cortez wholly evil? Did he never do a single good thing in his life? Somehow I doubt that. This is knee jerk political correctness once again.

 

[DevilEyes]

you could name a starship after just about anything or one and there would be someone who could object.

Indeed. In TNG's time, there is a Starfleet ship called USS Gorkon. What do you think happened to it when the war with the Klingons broke out in DS9's season 4?

As for Cortez - big friggin' deal. Everybody keeps telling me I should believe in more gray areas? Well, time for THEM to step up to the plate. Was Cortez wholly evil? Did he never do a single good thing in his life? Somehow I doubt that. This is knee jerk political correctness once again.

That's not what Ira Steven Behr said...

In the May 2002 issue of Star Trek: The Magazine, former DEEP SPACE NINE executive producer Ira Steven Behr talks at length about the decisions behind the development of Marc Alaimo's 'Gul Dukat', the major villain throughout the series's run.

Behr remembers how in the pilot, the character was originally played by another actor: "Let's just say we all agreed that perhaps we had made a less than perfect choice and that the part had to be recast. Someone said 'What about Marc Alaimo?' because he had done TNG, and there you go... From that point on my model for Dukat was Alaimo. That's a real compliment; He presented us with so many opportunities."

Behr explains that the character as he conceived him was to be ruthless and without sympathy, a characterization difficult to maintain through the seven seasons: "The problem I find with a lot of writers, including myself, is that once you get involved with a character you start to get to know him and you humanize him. Michael Piller did the rewrite of 'Defiant' where he had Dukat talk about his children; My reaction was, 'Uh oh, we've crossed the line.' I realized that he was going to lose all credibility as a villain; we were going to shower him with our usual writerish empathy, and, like all good liberals, we'd see him as neither fish or fowl." "I really responded against that. Here was the guy who had been in charge of Bajor, and right away we were looking for excuses for him."

Behr continues, saying there was always a tension between romanticizing 'Dukat' as a villain and paintaing him as a sort of war-criminal: "I had certainly done my bit in making Dukat a kind of swashbuckling villain, but I always thought the Cardassians were horrific; I think anyone who doesn't is obviously confused. They did a horrible thing, and I have little sympathy for that."

But actor Marc Alaimo, who had become quite popular with the show's fans, had a different view of the character, seeing him as ultimately redeemable. Behr explains how this actually helped feed into creating the character the way he wanted: "What made it perfect, what made it beautiful, and that no writer could have conceived of, was that Alaimo took it in his head that he was the hero of the series - that Dukat was really just misunderstood; that he was sweet and kind. *

"Whenever I think of the character, I think of Renoir's line from 'The Rules of the Game': 'The tragedy of life is that every man has his reasons.' Dukat could logically explain away everything he did, he could find justifications for all of it, and that's the horror; that's the thing Alaimo and I were always in disagreement about. His attitude was, 'We all have this inside of us, we're all many different people, and no one is truly evil.' Then I'd say, 'OK, if you take that to its conclusion, then no one has to stand accountable for their actions.'"

Much to the producer/writer's chagrin, many fans began to see the character and the Cardassians as "sexy" rather than horrific: "We'd sit in the writers room and laugh about it sometimes. We'd get the Cardassian newsletter and look at it and think, 'What has gone wrong?' of course it's science fiction; you put makeup on and suddenly it's OK. If it's Idi Amin or Pol Pot no one's thinking of spending a romantic weekend in his arms; but you give him a bony neck and a rubber outfit, and it's a whole different thing."

In the latter seasons, as the writers began mapping out how the Cardassians would eventually overthrow the Dominion's yoke, Behr says he intentionally steered away from the temptation to valorize 'Dukat' and turn him into the hero that evetually became of actor Casey Biggs's 'Damar'.

"We were able to have a guy (Damar) who had been pushed too far. That was something you could never really get from Alaimo's character, because he would never allow himself to be subjected to that kind of treatment in the first place. I couldn't accept that Dukat would become the savior of Cardassia," he said. "I'm sure his fans would have adored it, and Alaimo would have loved it, but there were too many instances where he was false. It wasn't credible, and I know the man who had to be there at the very end to speak for Cardassia was Garak, as the true outsider.

"If it had been Dukat, it would have been too romantic. We went that way with Damar to an extent, which is why we killed him the way we did - fast, and before the end of the show. I know people felt that he deserved something better, but that was a very calculated move. Imagine if we'd done that with Dukat? I mean, forget it."

In the end, Behr says he's mostly pleased with how the character met his end fittingly: "I think he got what he deserved, let me put it like that. I can't say I feel sorry for him, I really don't. He and Winn were two characters I just could not sympathize with. Though we tried in all fairness to give them their points of view and give them their attitudes, they were very deluded, and they did horrible things."

Gray areas? What gray areas? Did you just say 'knee-jerk political correctness"?

You know, DS9 is my favorite Trek show, but I'm not cutting it any slack for that - on the contrary, I hold it to higher standards and tend to be very disappointed when it fails badly. You wanna make a knee-jerk PC show with flat, black and white good and bad guys, and preach the viewers every week? You want to make absolutely sure that all the viewers get the "messages" right? Fine, than do that, and do it consistently. Don't name good guys' ships after highly controversial and problematic historical figures that share many traits with your show's bad guys. Or you wanna make a deep, thought-provoking, challenging show that respects the viewers' intelligence with complex, morally ambiguous characters and storylines? Than do that consistently, to the end. But - don't start by doing the the latter, and then turn around and decide to turn it all into a cheesy black hats/white hats story, because you got scared by too much complexity and ambiguity. Unless you want your show to be 'neither fish nor fowl".

 

[JuanBolio]

The USS Cortez was also a Hermes-class scout in the 23rd century. I know this, for I have piloted it.

As for the morality of the naming - Cortez was a notable man in history. His name and his deeds, right or wrong, made their mark. President Harry Truman ordered two atomic bombs dropped on primarily civilian targets... but they named a ship after him. I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm too lazy to think of them now. My basic point boils down to the old adage - "You've gotta take the good with the bad."

 

[Dusty Ayres]

The OP makes some good points.

However,

I imagine that you can pick any historical name for a ship in ST and someone is gonna be offended by it. Anyone who is a hero to some is inevitably a villain to others.

So I guess that you don't mind these names then:

*USS Cheddi Jagan

*USS Frantz Fanon

*USS Cesar Sandino

*USS Ho Chi Minh

*USS Che Guevara

*USS Fidel Castro

*USS Jose Marti

*USS Eugene V. Debs

EDIT: Here's more-

USS Mao Tse-Tung (Mao Zedong)

USS Chou En-Lai (Zhou Enlai)

USS Pol Pot

USS Ieng Sary

USS Amílcar Cabral

USS Agostinho Neto

Be aware that the same also applies to the people I've just mentioned, and the additional add-ons.

 

[Myasishchev]

Euguene V. Debs? Awesome.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

That, and if any of those names were used, right-wingers would be having coronaries when they watched a Star Trek movie or TV show.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Never mind all this political stuff, I want the USS Jeter, USS Posada, USS Pettitte, USS Rivera...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The OP makes some good points.

However,

I imagine that you can pick any historical name for a ship in ST and someone is gonna be offended by it. Anyone who is a hero to some is inevitably a villain to others.

Try raising this point next time Enterprise is rescued by the USS Hitler.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But I have a real problem naming things after the mass murderer commonly remembered as Christopher Columbus.

Did Columbus personally murder someone?

Did Osama bin Laden?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But I have a real problem naming things after the mass murderer commonly remembered as Christopher Columbus.

Did Columbus personally murder someone?

Did Osama bin Laden?

OBL personally orchestrated a terrorist attack that killed thousands. Columbus? Not even close.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I have thought about their naming scheme as well, but I must admit, not about Cortez, and as far as Malinche goes, I had no idea who she was until now.

However, I did think about Crazy Horse, Zhukov, and Yamato. My thought when hearing about them is, what kind of peaceful state dedicated to exploring and coexistence names their ships after these people? Especially Zhukov??

Now, this is going to sound crass, but 10 million in 50 years is a pretty low-intensity genocide. Only 200,000 a year, for a whole planetfull of people. Hutus with machetes managed 200,000 a month.

It's low on a planetary scale, but still genocide. 200k is a lot.

 

[UssGlenn]

I looked up Columbia, I was wrong, it doesn't predate Columbus. However it's never used in naming ships to refer to anything except the United States, so there's no issue of endorsing Columbus, it's an endorsement of the USA.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I think they used Cortez/Columbus because they were explorers. They must have somehow lost information on wiping out Aztecs or may be they don't care or view it as a historical tidbit that shouldn't be judged. Nowadays, we don't judge Caesar killing or enslaving 1,000,000 Gauls because it was normal rules of warfare at the time. We gloss over Alexander burning Persopolis and warmongering only because it was a long time ago and because he's part of the Western Civilization. May be they view all historical figures as a crucial part of human history, and only those that are most notorious (hitler) would be considered persona non grata.

 

[Sci]

I think they used Cortez/Columbus because they were explorers. They must have somehow lost information on wiping out Aztecs or may be they don't care or view it as a historical tidbit that shouldn't be judged. Nowadays, we don't judge Caesar killing or enslaving 1,000,000 Gauls because it was normal rules of warfare at the time.

We should. We're just playing into the propaganda machine that these tyrants created to idolize themselves when we white-wash their crimes against humanity.

We gloss over Alexander burning Persopolis and warmongering only because it was a long time ago and because he's part of the Western Civilization.

And we shouldn't gloss over those things at all.

Did Columbus personally murder someone?

Did Osama bin Laden?

OBL personally orchestrated a terrorist attack that killed thousands.

Actually, Kalid Sheik Mohammed is believed to be the man who personally orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. Osama bin Ladin was aware of them and authorized them but didn't personally orchestrate them.

Doesn't make him any less responsible for what his subordinates did, though.

Columbus? Not even close.

Christopher Columbus, according to his own records at the time:

- claimed possession of the island his fleet landed on in the name of the King and Queen of Spain

- kidnapped ten to twenty-five Arawaks and brought them back to Spain at the end of his first trip

- upon returning, demanded from the Arawaks inhabitants food, gold, spun cotton, and other goods

- instituted a punishment system whereby if an Arawak committed even a minor offense, his nose or ears would be chopped off

- invaded Arawak villages with 200 foot soldiers, 20 cavalry, and 20 hunting dogs when Arawaks tried to resist by refusing to plan food for the Spaniards, abandoned villages near Spanish settlements, and tried to attack the Spaniards in retaliation for Spanish attacks on Arawaks

- Columbus's troops, according to Kirkpatrick Sale quoting Ferdinand Columbus's biography of his father: "mowed down dozens with point-blank volleys, loosed the dogs to rip open limbs and bellies, chased fleeing Indians into the bush to skewer them on sword and pike, and 'with God's aid soon gained complete victory, killing many Indians and capturing others who were also killed' " (meaning, murdered prisoners)

- Initiated a slave raid in 1495, rounding up 1,500 Arawaks and then selecting the 500 best specimens to send to Spain (200 of whom died en route) and another 500 of whom were used as slaves for the Spaniards staying on the island; Columbus even wrote to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, "In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the slaves and brazil-wood which could be sold. In Castile, Portugal, Aragon... and the Canary Islands they need many slaves, and I do not think they get enough from Guinea." On the Arawak death rate when being sent to Spain: "Although they die now, they will not always die. The Negroes and Canary Islanders died at first."

- Instituted a "reign of terror in Hispaniola" according to James W. Loewen's quoting of Hans Koning. From Loewen: "Spaniards hunted American Indians for sport and murdered them for dog food. Columbus, upset because he could not located the gold he was certain was on the island, set up a tribute system. Ferdinand Columbus described how it worked: 'The Indians all promised to pay tribute to the Catholic Sovereigns every three months, as follows: In the Cibao, where the gold mines were, every person of 14 years of age or upward was to pay a large hawk's bell of gold dust; all others were each to pay 25 pounds of cotton. Whenever an Indian delivered his tribute, he was to receive a brass or copper token which he must wear about his neck as proof that he had made his payment. Any Indian found without such a token was to be punished.' ... Columbus's son neglected to mention how the Spanish punished those whose tokens had expired: they cut off their hands." (My bolding.)

- Upon the breakdown of the tribute system because of its impossible demands of the Arawaks, "Columbus installed the encomienda system, in which he granted or 'commended' entire Indian villages to individual colonists or groups of colonists. Since it was not called slavery, this forced-labor system escaped the moral censure that slavery received. Following Columbus's example, Spain made the encomienda system official policy on Haiti in 1502; other conquistadors subsequently introduced it to Mexico, Peru, and Florida."

- "On Haiti the colonists made the Arawaks mine gold for them, raise Spanish food, and even carry them everywhere they went. They couldn't stand it. Pedro de Cordoba wrote in a letter to King Ferdinand in 1517, 'As a result of the sufferings and hard labor they endured, the Indians choose and have chosen suicide. Occasionally a hundred have committed mass suicide. The women, exhausted by labor, have shunned conception and childbirth... Many, when pregnant, have taken something to abort and have aborted. Others after delivery have killed their children with their own hands, so as not to leave them in such oppressive slavery.' "

- Prevented Arawaks rom working on their gardens and crops in favor of forcing them to work in mines, leading to widespread malnutrition

- Instituted a genocide against Native populations under his rule. "Estimates of Haiti's pre-Columbian population range as high as eight million people. When Christopher Columbus returned to Spain, he left his brother Bartholomew in charge of the island. Bartholomew took a census of Indian adults in 1496 and came up with 1.1 million. The Spanish did not count children under fourteen and could not count Arawaks who had escaped in the mountains. Kirkpatrick Sale estimates that a more accurate total would probably be in the neighborhood of three million. 'By 1516,' according to Benjamin Keen, 'thanks to the sinister Indian slave trade and labor policies initiated by Columbus, only some 12,000 remained.' Las Casas tells us that fewer than two hundred full-blooded Haitian Indians were alive in 1542. By 1555, they were all gone."

- Columbus instituted a system of sexual slavery and child molestation to reward his troops. "As soon as the 1493 expedition got to the Caribbean, before it even reached Haiti, Columbus was rewarding his lieutenants with native women to rape. On Haiti, sex slaves were one more perquisite that the Spaniards enjoyed. Columbus wrote a friend in 1500, 'A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand.' "

All of this information and the quotes therein were taken from Chapter 2 of Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong by University of Vermont Professor Emeritus of Sociology James W. Loewen.

Now, however much we may try to excuse some of these actions of Columbus's -- which we would today cite as crimes against humanity -- by claiming that it was the 15th Century and 15th Century Spanish culture allowed his actions, the fact remains that the Federation (to say nothing of modern-day America) is supposed to be a more enlightened, egalitarian society. The Federation -- and modern America -- should not venerate a man who committed such atrocities.

And, yes, Christopher Columbus did commit atrocities. He was responsible for the deaths of millions of people, far more than Osama bin Ladin.

And to top it all off, Columbus wasn't even the first European to discover the Americas (that would be the Vikings, if not earlier cultures if some disputed evidence is taken into account), just the one to bring the existence of the Americas to the forefront of Europe's attention.

Bottom line: Christopher Columbus deserves no one's veneration, and not a damn thing ought to be named after that monster.

 

[Myasishchev]

It's low on a planetary scale, but still genocide. 200k is a lot.

Not for an occupation against a resistance. Jeez, more than 200,000 Vietnamese died per year. With the exception of some total jerks like Darheel, Cardassians must have been pretty restrained. No orbital Arc Lights over B'hava'ael.

And, as others have mentioned, the low intensity doesn't fit the definition of the term genocide. It's almost without a doubt still illegal aggression on behalf of the Cardassian Union, and individuals definitely committed crimes against Bajoranity, which includes using forced labor, but the overall effect was clearly not genocide, and it's very doubtful that this was the goal.

I also wonder if all the idiots moving carts of ore around were "criminals," or just random levies. They probably said they were just random levies, but criminals (or the families of criminals) undergoing some kind of punitive treatment makes a lot more sense, inasmuch as the forced manual labor on Terok Nor cannot survive the most cursory economic analysis.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

The OP makes some good points.

However,

I imagine that you can pick any historical name for a ship in ST and someone is gonna be offended by it. Anyone who is a hero to some is inevitably a villain to others.

Try raising this point next time Enterprise is rescued by the USS Hitler.

Or the USS Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, or Mao Tse-Tung.

 

[T'Girl]

Don't forget the medical ship USS Joseph Megale.

As I recall from school, Cortez wiped out the Aztec not with Spanish guns, but by rallying the indigenous people who had been killed, enslaved and raped by the Aztecs for centuries. You can cry "european mass murder" all day, but in the same breath please admit the Aztecs as a group were far worst than Cortez.

Most indigenous people in america who died after the arrival of the europeans died from the spread of diseases that the europeans had, at least partual, immunity to. Europeans at that time had no real knowledge how disease was transmitted. In the 14th century the Black Death killed 450 million europeans, about half of everyone then alive. It started in asia, traveled to the Crimea, to the near east, then to europe by way of merchant ships.

Modern eurpeans do not blame modern people from the near east for the deaths of their ancestors.


T

 

[Sci]

Don't forget the medical ship USS Joseph Megale.

As I recall from school, Cortez wiped out the Aztec not with Spanish guns, but by rallying the indigenous people who had been killed, enslaved and raped by the Aztecs for centuries. You can cry "european mass murder" all day, but in the same breath please admit the Aztecs as a group were far worst than Cortez.

I am more than happy to proclaim that both were bad, and that neither should have Federation starships named after them.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Did Columbus personally murder someone?

Did Osama bin Laden?

OBL personally orchestrated a terrorist attack that killed thousands. Columbus?

Colombus personally founded and oversaw a colonial policy that subsequently massacred the entire Tainos civilization. That's close enough for me.