How has this movie changed Classic Trek history...?

[Mallory]

Just a reminder guys to lay off the personal stuff. OK?

 

[number6]

True. Conversely it also doesn't mean accepting without question whatever is being peddled.

Those aren't the only options nor are they mutually exclusive. One can also hate something without constantly reminding everyone how much. That is a waste of everyone's time and sanity.

Are you going to start playing Nerys Myk's petulant little game of harping every time I express an opinion you don't like or agree with?

If I don't like something then that's my right and I also have every right to express it as much as anyone else has to express what they like or dislike?

Lots of others are expressing dissenting opinions of nuTrek so why aren't you and Myk harping on them? Have I got some sort of fucking target painted on me?

What is wrong with you people?

Oh stop playing the "victim."

No one is harping on you. You're free to hate whatever you want and post about it as freely as you wish.

However, implying that people who like this film would like anything with Trek slapped on in is an insult to everyone with an open mind.
You're totally free to harp on everyone that your particular niche of Trek is the only one that matters and the rest of the universe is somehow inadequate for thinking otherwise.

I am totally free to point out that I am a fan of TOS and that I don't have that narrow a view of the Trek universe and that there are others who are willing to enjoy other Trek related ideas beyond the original series.

You are either unwilling or unable to do that and that's your right as a "fan."

 

[number6]

The only true Star Trek is "The Cage". Everything else is fanwank.

Absolutely Right™

 

[seigezunt]

I'm sorry. I can't get past the phrase "the Spock I grew up with."

 

[number6]

I'm sorry. I can't get past the phrase "the Spock I grew up with."

You mean the one who talked openly about his Ponn Farr with Droxine? And got jiggy with Leila and Zarabeth? And threw a bowl of Plomeek soup at Number One/Nurse Chapel?? The one who angrily smacked a phaser out of his "protege's" hand?? The same Spock that leered and made sexual insinuations to Janice Rand and flrted with Uhura on the bridge?? The one who gave Kirk a back massage?? The guy who was knowingly cheating on his wife T'Pring and wouldn't give some blood to his daddy?? That Spock??

 

[Dar70]

Those aren't the only options nor are they mutually exclusive. One can also hate something without constantly reminding everyone how much. That is a waste of everyone's time and sanity.

Are you going to start playing Nerys Myk's petulant little game of harping every time I express an opinion you don't like or agree with?

If I don't like something then that's my right and I also have every right to express it as much as anyone else has to express what they like or dislike?

Lots of others are expressing dissenting opinions of nuTrek so why aren't you and Myk harping on them? Have I got some sort of fucking target painted on me?

What is wrong with you people?

Oh stop playing the "victim."

No one is harping on you. You're free to hate whatever you want and post about it as freely as you wish.

However, implying that people who like this film would like anything with Trek slapped on in is an insult to everyone with an open mind.
You're totally free to harp on everyone that your particular niche of Trek is the only one that matters and the rest of the universe is somehow inadequate for thinking otherwise.

I am totally free to point out that I am a fan of TOS and that I don't have that narrow a view of the Trek universe and that there are others who are willing to enjoy other Trek related ideas beyond the original series.

You are either unwilling or unable to do that and that's your right as a "fan."

Works both ways though. I was chastised for my views on the film in the film forum. I wasnt putting anyone down for liking it, I was only posting my dislike fot the film. Also that I hope Shatner is in the next one so it gets even more silly so they wont last but a couple films more. But if fans like it fine. I dont. So again fans of the film have berated fans who didnt like it as well. Of course us complaining about it will do no good. This is always what happens in debate or discussion. From Film to religion to politics. Everyone wants their opinion to be right and will think everyone else is stupid if they dont agree. Just one of those things that we cant control.

Warped9 make some good valid points for disliking this film. I have to say I agree with him on almost everyone of them and I gave the film a chance. I went into it with a completely opened mind. The film just felt forced, disjointed, shoehorned, whatever you want to call it, for me. My brother had the exact same feelings and we both have loved almost everything since TOS.

 

[number6]

Are you going to start playing Nerys Myk's petulant little game of harping every time I express an opinion you don't like or agree with?

If I don't like something then that's my right and I also have every right to express it as much as anyone else has to express what they like or dislike?

Lots of others are expressing dissenting opinions of nuTrek so why aren't you and Myk harping on them? Have I got some sort of fucking target painted on me?

What is wrong with you people?

Oh stop playing the "victim."

No one is harping on you. You're free to hate whatever you want and post about it as freely as you wish.

However, implying that people who like this film would like anything with Trek slapped on in is an insult to everyone with an open mind.
You're totally free to harp on everyone that your particular niche of Trek is the only one that matters and the rest of the universe is somehow inadequate for thinking otherwise.

I am totally free to point out that I am a fan of TOS and that I don't have that narrow a view of the Trek universe and that there are others who are willing to enjoy other Trek related ideas beyond the original series.

You are either unwilling or unable to do that and that's your right as a "fan."

Works both ways though. I was chastised for my views on the film in the film forum. I wasnt putting anyone down for liking it, I was only posting my dislike fot the film. Also that I hope Shatner is in the next one so it gets even more silly so they wont last but a couple films more. But if fans like it fine. I dont. So again fans of the film have berated fans who didnt like it as well. Of course us complaining about it will do no good. This is always what happens in debate or discussion. From Film to religion to politics. Everyone wants their opinion to be right and will think everyone else is stupid if they dont agree. Just one of those things that we cant control.

Warped9 may get a little personal from time to time. But he does make good points for people who dislike the film.

Warped9 has made it loud and clear that he doesn't like anything post '79. There's no surprise that he doesn't like this film and finds fault with it. He makes points, but none of them are good, because when you go out of your way to hate everything, there is nothing that is going to merit a valid argument one way or the other, because no matter what your opinion is, the other side will always be the same with unflagging lack of variation. It doesn't make any debate interesting or engaging.

 

[Dar70]

^^^Yes I know he doesnt like anything past 79'. I have debated him in the past. But this time he is entirely correct. Im sure even he can see that this film makes all the rest of the series very tolerable now.

 

[number6]

^^^Yes I know he doesnt like anything past 79'. I have debated him in the past. But this time he is entirely correct. Im sure even he can see that this film makes all the rest of the series very tolerable now.

I don't really see how. Are you saying that he'll now look at VOY and Nemesis with a more appreciative eye?? That I would pay real money to see!!

 

[Dar70]

^^^Yes I know he doesnt like anything past 79'. I have debated him in the past. But this time he is entirely correct. Im sure even he can see that this film makes all the rest of the series very tolerable now.

I don't really see how. Are you saying that he'll now look at VOY and Nemesis with a more appreciative eye?? That I would pay real money to see!!

Stranger things have happened....ok maybe not..but I cant see him faulting those other shows for at least trying to maintain continuity and a cohesive Trek universe.

 

[number6]

^^^Yes I know he doesnt like anything past 79'. I have debated him in the past. But this time he is entirely correct. Im sure even he can see that this film makes all the rest of the series very tolerable now.

I don't really see how. Are you saying that he'll now look at VOY and Nemesis with a more appreciative eye?? That I would pay real money to see!!

Stranger things have happened....ok maybe not..but I cant see him faulting those other shows for at least trying to maintain continuity and a cohesive Trek universe.

Hahahaha.. No.

My point isn't to pick on Warped9. My point is to say that there are a vocal few that imply that Lifelong fan of TOS=Hating everything else. I don't subscribe to that, and in fact many longtime TOS enjoyed this film.

Back ON TOPIC (yes I remember the topic).. The nature of the shory told in this new film should mean that nothing in Classic Trek should have changed at all. Different timeline or reality or whatever and all that.

The one thing people should give this film credit for, is the renewed interest in the original show and a renewed appreciation for the calibre of storytelling that was possible in the 60s. That is an era of storytelling that is long gone for several reasons, the least of which is the overall cynicism of our modern society as a whole. I think this new franchise has a unique opportunity to bring back some of that idealism that followed TOS and made it endure these many years.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I'm sorry. I can't get past the phrase "the Spock I grew up with."

I was born on the first of January, 1966. So yes, I literally grew up with these characters.

What's so "funny" about that?

 

[Captain Robert April]

You mean the one who talked openly about his Ponn Farr with Droxine?

He talked about ponn far in general, not his personal experience.

And got jiggy with Leila and Zarabeth?

Under the effects of those spores with Leila. And as for Zarabeth, that has to do with the passive telepathic link that Vulcans have with one anther (case in point, Spock "feeling" the Intrepid, and its all Vulcan crew die) and that in the time period Spock was in, Vulcans were a rather barbarous lot.

And threw a bowl of Plomeek soup at Number One/Nurse Chapel??

Under the effects of ponn far. And Number One wasn't there.

The one who angrily smacked a phaser out of his "protege's" hand??

A much older Spock who was in a much different place in life and much more at peace with his emotions.

The same Spock that leered and made sexual insinuations to Janice Rand and flrted with Uhura on the bridge??

The bit with Janice is just plain hackneyed writing, an attempt to end the show on an up note. As for Uhura, seriously, go back and watch the scene. Uhura's trying to make friendly conversation and Spock is completely clueless. I've gotten more flirtatious looks out of my male cat than Uhura got out of Spock.

The one who gave Kirk a back massage??

And just when in the hell did this supposedly happen?

The guy who was knowingly cheating on his wife T'Pring and wouldn't give some blood to his daddy?? That Spock??

When did this supposed cheating go on? And Spock's reasons for delaying his participation in Sarek's surgery were made exceedingly clear; once Kirk resumed command, Spock went back to Sickbay and the surgery commenced.

Just how much attention did you pay when watching the show? I'm having my doubts.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I'm sorry. I can't get past the phrase "the Spock I grew up with."

I was born on the first of January, 1966. So yes, I literally grew up with these characters.

What's so "funny" about that?

July, 1964. Watched it on NBC as a toddler.

 

[seigezunt]

I'm sorry. I can't get past the phrase "the Spock I grew up with."

You mean the one who talked openly about his Ponn Farr with Droxine? And got jiggy with Leila and Zarabeth? And threw a bowl of Plomeek soup at Number One/Nurse Chapel?? The one who angrily smacked a phaser out of his "protege's" hand?? The same Spock that leered and made sexual insinuations to Janice Rand and flrted with Uhura on the bridge?? The one who gave Kirk a back massage?? The guy who was knowingly cheating on his wife T'Pring and wouldn't give some blood to his daddy?? That Spock??

Yes, I'd forgotten about Spock cracking wise with the recently-raped Rand.

I'm sorry. I can't get past the phrase "the Spock I grew up with."

I was born on the first of January, 1966. So yes, I literally grew up with these characters.

What's so "funny" about that?

Because it sounds like you are talking about a real person. Or you think you are.

The one who gave Kirk a back massage??

And just when in the hell did this supposedly happen?

"Shore Leave."

 

[number6]

I'm sorry. I can't get past the phrase "the Spock I grew up with."

You mean the one who talked openly about his Ponn Farr with Droxine? And got jiggy with Leila and Zarabeth? And threw a bowl of Plomeek soup at Number One/Nurse Chapel?? The one who angrily smacked a phaser out of his "protege's" hand?? The same Spock that leered and made sexual insinuations to Janice Rand and flrted with Uhura on the bridge?? The one who gave Kirk a back massage?? The guy who was knowingly cheating on his wife T'Pring and wouldn't give some blood to his daddy?? That Spock??

Yes, I'd forgotten about Spock cracking wise with the recently-raped Rand.



Because it sounds like you are talking about a real person. Or you think you are.

And just when in the hell did this supposedly happen?

"Shore Leave."

I love it when someone on this board "gets" me!!!




Oh and Oct 1965.. Saw a few first run as a drooling toddler, but really got hooked in reruns in 1971 as a drooling preschooler.
Now enjoying 6 series and 11 films as a drooling fossil.

 

[Lord Garth]

So, have there been that many alterations from Classic Trek as a result of this latest movie?

If so, what are they? (I'm to lazy to check myself......)

Here's a straight answer:

ST XI is an alternate timeline and here are the most obvious things that are alternate: the Enterprise looks different and Vulcan was destroyed. Also, Spock and Uhura being in a romantic relationship was never shown in TOS.

There you are.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Its the many worlds theory. Especially relating to time travel.
The arrival of the Narada in 2233 is the quantum event that created the JJverse.

Except that the universe that the Narada arrived in wasn't the same universe that preceded TOS. That's the point. They arrived in a universe that had a TOS-era props during the Pre-Cage era, and uniforms which more closely reflect TNG than the pre-cage era. And where, apparently, crew got to have their families on board long before, in TNG, Starfleet started putting families on starships.

Too many deviations to pretend that "it's the same reality."

(And please, none of those snarky "none if it is real, you dumbass" comments anymore, guys... that's not an argument, it's just snideness, nothing more or less... a way to try to "win an argument" without actually having to debate the topic being discussed.)

The Kelvin uniforms were meant to reflect the styles seen in 1950s SF, not TNG.

The only family seen (IIRC) was a husband and wife (the Kirks). Married couples serving together was established in Balance of Terror.

Prop designs are a minor detail. The functions of said props are more important.

The movie is fantasy. The reality is Paramount hired these guys to write a movie. They've decided that Nimoy's Spock in this film is the Spock from TOS. No amount of fannish pronouncements on the internet will change that.

They also decided that a cadet (not even a commissioned officer... an O-1) can be promoted to Captain (an O-6), skipping past every rank in between, and hopscotching the entire existing population of Starfleet in the process, because of a single mission where, let's be blunt, he got lucky.

Oh, and they decided that you can see a planet collapse by a "black hole" with the naked eye, yet not be affected in any way by that black hole yourself.

All we saw ON-SCREEN... which, by any argument, is the only thing that is "official"... is that a guy named Spock, played by Leonard Nimsey, came back to a past that wasn't the same past he remembered.

Anything beyond that is "unofficial and unsupported."

[/QUOTE]Yeah, "Star Trek" makes a lot of those "decisions" to tell the stories it wants to tell. Doesn't mean I like them, but in the end it Paramounts call. On screen simply informs continuity. For the whys you have to go to what the authors say.

ETA: From memory alpha

It can be assumed that Nero's time tampering had something to do with the shift, although in reality the true reason behind the uniforms seen in Star Trek were to associate the audience with the much more familiar Original Series uniforms seen through the late 1960s in contrast to the pilot uniforms which were only seen in two episodes. A similar situation arose in "Friday's Child" where Leonard McCoy is shown in a flashback video wearing an Enterprise tunic whereas, historically, he should have been wearing an earlier pilot episode uniform.

Can't say I ever noticed that.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

The one thing people should give this film credit for, is the renewed interest in the original show and a renewed appreciation for the calibre of storytelling that was possible in the 60s. That is an era of storytelling that is long gone for several reasons, the least of which is the overall cynicism of our modern society as a whole. I think this new franchise has a unique opportunity to bring back some of that idealism that followed TOS and made it endure these many years.

And ultimately, that's what I'm complaining about. Not that it's "not TOS" (your point is correct... this is NOT the original show, it's an entirely unrelated "universe"... and I tend to agree that the Old Spock" we see here isn't really the Spock from the "timeline" we grew up with... just another "alternative universe" variation).

The problems I have is with this film are several.

First, off, there are huge plot deficiencies... ones which make "Nemesis" make wonderful sense by comparison.

Second, there are the "changes just to be different." Set, prop, and costume design changes that don't add anything to the presentation, but are just different to be different (sloppiness, ignorance, or intent? Hard to tell) could be dealt with... if the "core elements" were really there.

But really... that's not the biggest issue.

The things that I love about Star Trek aren't the arrowhead symbol, or the general shape of the ship, or the names of the people standing around saying lines, or the colors of the shirts. MISSING those things would be greatly annoying, but you could have gotten every bit of that 100% "right" and still ended up with a stinker of a movie, if the "heart" isn't there. And that's what most of us who didn't care for the movie are really talking about.

If the characters don't "feel the same," the appeal of the original isn't there. These characters didn't "feel the same" to me. This Kirk wasn't someone who was a cocky overachiever with deservedly cocky attitude... he was just someone with a bad attitude. This Spock wasn't a noble soul... he was a vicious, vindictive, and dishonorable man. Some of that you may justify by "his planet was just blown up" but way too much of that happened prior to the destruction of Vulcan.

Urban's McCoy was good, but he wasn't really used to any end... he was just there to "channel Kelley" but the storyline didn't really need him. Imagine if McCoy hadn't been in the film at all... what central parts of the story would have been lost? Same for Sulu or Chekov... they were there because someone thought that "having all the old familiar names" present counted more than having the ones that were there presented as being the same characters. Get the bad Russian accent right, and that's supposed to count for more than the deeper character traits of Kirk and Spock? Not for me.

That's what, ultimately, led me to dislike this movie as much as I did. I grant, it's an entertaining movie on the same level as, say, "Transformers," or "The Phantom Menace," or any of the other movies that have lots of big flashy action and broad characterizations without much depth.

See, this is why I didn't like this movie. I WANTED to like it... but the more I saw, even before it came out, the more I realized that Abrams and his team didn't "get it." They captured just enough of Trek to make it "look like" the Star Trek we remember... sort of... but it's missing it's "soul."

It's a changeling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling

 

[number6]

And just when in the hell did this supposedly happen?

"Shore Leave."

Apparently he didn't see that one.