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Joss Jumps ship: Dollhouse is done?

I like Dushku, Lennix, Talmoh, and Acker, and I wanted to like Dollhouse, but I just couldn't get into it, no matter how short and tight Dushku's dresses could be at times. I just think the concept didn't lend itself to a long-term TV show and then the execution was off. A movie or miniseries perhaps, but not a series that could conceivably go on for years.

FOX made a mistake in giving DH a second season while cancelling Terminator, which was just starting to get back on track.
 
^ Even if he doesn't say it :lol:
Especially when he doesn't say it. You have to know how and when to read between the lines.
Except that he does say it, in the second line of the second paragraph of the quoted material. He then tries to cover it up as a joke in exactly the same way Triumph the Insult Comic Dog does.

Apparently people like you are extremely easy to insult. You just have to be flippant about it! I mean, how can it be true if you say it jokingly?!
 
For those of us with advanced reading skills, the second line of the second paragraph says they will probably get cancelled because they have low ratings.
 
NOTE TO JOSS WHEDON: NO MORE SHOWS ON FOX.

This is a question I keep asking. Why do these guys keep wasting their time with Fox? Not just Whedon but his colleagues like Minear, too. I will grant that Dollhouse, regardless what people think of it, is going to get a fairer shake than the other Whedon-related shows on Fox -- two seasons (albeit short, UK-style seasons). But still, Buffy and Angel got multi-year runs out of being done for The WB - and The CW, despite its shaky track record in the ratings - seems quite willing to keep shows running, such as Smallville. Do the math.

I think Whedon is very overrated, but I hope the next time he comes up with a TV series he stops putting his hand on the hot stove and instead goes to a venue like the CW or Syfy where his show stands a chance of lasting awhile. And just like those folks bellyaching about "not enough people watch it" that shouldn't matter. As long as the show is being made, then it'll be available either through DVD/BR or streaming.

I'll be the first to admit I haven't bothered getting into Dollhouse because I was pretty confident it would be cancelled quickly. I probably made the right call. And I'm willing to bet there are people out there who passed on watching it because of the "It's Whedon on Fox; the show is DOA" effect, never mind if it's good or bad.

Alex
 
Wow, I love how much in denial he is.

Listen up guys, it's not his fault the show sucks and is doing so poorly! It's the ratings, meaning it's solely your fault! How dare you not acknowledge his brilliance and wonder! The show is perfect and flawless in all ways; it's not his fault the story is ridiculous, the acting is shite, or the concept itself is absolutely asinine. No! It's all your fault! Damn you for not finding a way to pad the ratings!

The show may not be Angel, Buffy nor Firefly bit its still good TV. Buffy and Angel his most succesful shows would of died within 1/2 years on riday night 9pm FOX with awful lead ins. No matter your feeling on the show you cannot ignore the timeslot in this day n age.
 
NOTE TO JOSS WHEDON: NO MORE SHOWS ON FOX.

This is a question I keep asking. Why do these guys keep wasting their time with Fox?

We're talking about the people who bankrolled a movie based on his cancelled TV series, and gave Dollhouse a second season in defiance of ratings, yes?

I think simply saying that his relationship with Fox is a one-way street of them repeatedly screwing him over is incredibly simplistic.

And I'm willing to bet there are people out there who passed on watching it because of the "It's Whedon on Fox; the show is DOA" effect, never mind if it's good or bad.
Eh. I passed on it 'cause it's Whedon and even from his acolytes the reaction has been decidedly mixed. I did somewhat like the premise, but something even Whedonites are lukewarm to is likely not something I'd care for.
 
Why do they keep going to FOX? Because FOX keeps paying them to make new shows. And when those shows fail they pay them again to make another failed show. Work is work!
 
We're talking about the people who bankrolled a movie based on his cancelled TV series, and gave Dollhouse a second season in defiance of ratings, yes?

I think simply saying that his relationship with Fox is a one-way street of them repeatedly screwing him over is incredibly simplistic.

Fox did not bankroll Serenity, Universal did.
 
This is a question I keep asking. Why do these guys keep wasting their time with Fox?

We're talking about the people who bankrolled a movie based on his cancelled TV series, and gave Dollhouse a second season in defiance of ratings, yes?

I think simply saying that his relationship with Fox is a one-way street of them repeatedly screwing him over is incredibly simplistic.

IMDb says Serenity was bankrolled by Universal Pictures, not Fox. Fox may or may not have been involved in the movie (I assume they had some ownership over the Firefly concept) but it's still a Universal film, not a Fox film. My point stands.

Why do they keep going to FOX? Because FOX keeps paying them to make new shows. And when those shows fail they pay them again to make another failed show. Work is work!

That can be said of any studio. But Fox does have the proven track record of not giving these types of shows a chance. Yes, they have had some successes such as X-Files and, arguably, Fringe. But their handling of shows such as Firefly and Wonderfalls, as well as doing stuff like scheduling Dollhouse on a Friday knowing full well that its target demographic has been programmed into believing shows scheduled on Fridays are dead men walking ... the point I'm trying to make is Whedon and his colleagues should be saying "screw Fox, I'm going to try my luck at CBS" or, once again, doing what I think would be the logical thing if he wants to continue making SF shows is go to Syfy or a niche cable channel. nuBSG proved you can have great success in that venue (and if Whedon truly loves the craft and isn't in it for the money...). Arguably Whedon's biggest success in years was Dr. Horrible and that thing wasn't even produced for TV! In today's new media environment he'd probably do just as well producing a show for streaming on the Internet and selling subscriptions.

Alex
 
IMDb says Serenity was bankrolled by Universal Pictures, not Fox. Fox may or may not have been involved in the movie (I assume they had some ownership over the Firefly concept) but it's still a Universal film, not a Fox film. My point stands.

That point yes, but not your point overall. Fox has also brought back internet-popular cancelled shows like Family Guy and Futurama (for years, the three Fs seemed to be the main beef people had with the network).

The problem with this geek narrative is it assumes a level of wilful neligence that doesn't make a lot of sense. If Firefly was destined to be a monster hit, don't you think Fox would want that to happen and then milk the damn thing dry until Mal Reynolds plush dolls were lolling around spouting pseudo-badass nonsense in every house in America?

The series didn't do well in the ratings so it got cancelled. It did very well on DVD, and the response from TPTB was fairly immediate: Go and make a movie. The movie didn't do well enough to justify sequels, though.

Who's fault is it that the series didn't do well in ratings or the movie didn't do well? Yeah, could be the lack of promotion or rescheduling and what have you, but making mistakes isn't the same thing as gleefully stifling the genius creative talent of the visionary mastermind that is Joss Whedon.

Which is to say, Fox didn't maliciously pull the plug. They may have screwed up but in theory they would have wanted the show to be a success. Everywhere Whedon fans were howling that Dollhouse could never survive a single season on Fox, and it seems surviving two and then kicking the bucket is a 'same-difference' appeal for them (but then, if the show isn't too popular, what else should Fox do?)
 
For those of us with advanced reading skills, the second line of the second paragraph says they will probably get cancelled because they have low ratings.
Right. And those with a hint of common sense would realize that it means that it's your fault for not watching it and making it popular. Not his fault for creating a shitty show that no one wants to watch. What, being a god amongst men and all. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
For those of us with advanced reading skills, the second line of the second paragraph says they will probably get cancelled because they have low ratings.

And the third line of the second paragraph says "But I kid." Why this haste to assume the worst? Yes, Dollhouse has low ratings by conventional measures, but its bump in ratings when DVR figures are added in is kind of spectacular. So not a lot of people are watching the show as it airs, but a whole bunch of them are recording it and watching it later. And that's something the network is taking into account, which is why they've committed to showing at least the entire current 13-episode order. In olden days, they would've pulled the show already, but the way people watch television is changing and it's no longer reasonable to rely solely on conventional ratings and old assumptions.

That article is making a huge leap to a conclusion when it claims the show is doomed just because Whedon's doing a one-week directing gig on another show. That misunderstands the way television works in so many ways. I mean, if Whedon was able to have both Buffy and Angel on the air simultaneously, why would that writer assume he was incapable of producing one show and being a guest director on another at the same time? He certainly did it often enough with Buffy/Angel.


This is a question I keep asking. Why do these guys keep wasting their time with Fox?

Because FOX buys their shows. Really, FOX's reputation for being hostile to genre shows is undeserved. The reason it's cancelled so many genre shows over the years is because it's bought so many more genre shows than just about any other major network. Every show gets cancelled eventually, so if there are more genre shows on FOX, there will be more genre cancellations on FOX.

Not long ago, on another board, I did some calculations for how many SF/fantasy shows the various major networks have aired over the course of their lifetimes, using Wikipedia's lists of each network's shows, which are no doubt incomplete but at least in the ballpark. Here's what I got, calculating from the date of the earliest primetime genre show I could find for each network:

FOX: 1.27 shows/year (28 genre shows in 22 years, since Werewolf in 1987)

UPN: 1.25/yr (15 genre shows in its 12 years on the air)

The WB: 0.92/yr (11 genre shows in its 12 years on the air)

ABC: 0.91/yr (42 genre shows in 46 years, since The Outer Limits in 1963)

NBC: 0.57/yr (28 genre shows in 49 years, since Boris Karloff's Thriller in 1960)

CBS: 0.42/yr (21 genre shows in 50 years, since The Twilight Zone in 1959)

The CW: N/A (too young for any statistically meaningful estimates, and its genre shows are mostly inherited anyway)


If we limit it to the span of time that FOX has been airing genre shows (i.e. 1987-present), ABC stays roughly the same, NBC goes up to 0.73/yr, and CBS goes up to 0.55/yr. But their relative rankings remain unchanged.

Of course, this isn't a valid comparison of the relative success of genre shows, since many lasted for a very short time; a smaller ratio of new shows per year could mean that the ones they had lasted longer. But it says something about the networks' relative willingness to develop and broadcast genre shows.

And of all the broadcast networks, FOX is more or less tied with UPN as the most genre-friendly network, the one that's made SF and fantasy shows the largest part of its schedule over the span of its existence. If any network deserves a reputation as hostile to SF, it's CBS. (Indeed, the only reason its figure isn't even lower is that I counted Gilligan's Island and Green Acres as half a genre show each.)

There's also the fact that the people in charge of FOX today are not the same people who were in charge when Firefly was broadcast and cancelled. It's a totally different executive regime now. So the answer to "Why do they still go with FOX?" is that it's not the same FOX.


I'll be the first to admit I haven't bothered getting into Dollhouse because I was pretty confident it would be cancelled quickly. I probably made the right call.

No, you probably didn't. It's a good show, and it will have gotten at least two complete 13-episode seasons, each of which has a satisfactory degree of closure. You should definitely check out the DVDs, at least. Indeed, maybe it's better to see the first season on DVD than in first-run, because you can see the progression of the storyline more clearly.
 
For those of us with advanced reading skills, the second line of the second paragraph says they will probably get cancelled because they have low ratings.
Right. And those with a hint of common sense would realize that it means that it's your fault for not watching it and making it popular. Not his fault for creating a shitty show that no one wants to watch. What, being a god amongst men and all. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
And I'm the one who's easy to insult... I'm actually pretty difficult to insult because I don't look for reasons to be insulted in innocuous comments.

So you're saying every time someone says "The show was cancelled because of low ratings" they're saying "You fucking idiot, you didn't watch the show so it's your fault. Fuck you"?
 
Its more than clear that Checkmate loves being a drama queen because even if you don't like the show descrbing it shitty is a little OTT. There are many many worser shows than Dollhouse a lot of them. Also has no understanding of how TV works in this day n age...Friday night is a wasteland for tv shows and FOX with the exception of FOX has always struggled to gain any audience on that night. Dollhouse is a niche idea on a pitiful night in a slot that required a good lead in and I don't understand why FOX never put it on at 8pm.

Ratings are not 100% connected to quality and even if you put shows like House, Bones who are FOX hits on friday mights they would take a big hit in the ratings...Not too mention put them on friday night at 9pm for there first season or two they would of struggled to have gotten an audience at all.

If you want to believe your stuff then fair enough but there was more than the quality of the show that has doomed Dollhouse.
 
Dollhouse is a niche idea on a pitiful night in a slot that required a good lead in and I don't understand why FOX never put it on at 8pm.

I would imagine it's because the subject matter is too adult for 8 PM. Though I'm not sure how much meaning that distinction has in broadcast television anymore.
 
For those of us with advanced reading skills, the second line of the second paragraph says they will probably get cancelled because they have low ratings.

And the third line of the second paragraph says "But I kid." Why this haste to assume the worst?

I think you are rather missing the point of the conversation I was having. Try reading it again. I was saying that specific sentence was not accusing people of bringing down his show, as was suggested, but merely innocuously commenting on the ratings.
 
I have no idea what's eating you, Checkmate, but it's pretty clear you're letting your view of the man taint your interpretation of what he says. There's just no way anyone would pull out what you did from a minor joke otherwise. When Joss thinks he's made a mistake, he says so. When something's just not going his way, he jokes about it.

Yes, Dollhouse could have been better. Instead of focusing on 2009 and flashing to 2019 occasionally, the show should have been more evenly balanced between the two time periods from the start, IMO. That would have caught public attention better.
 
This silly little article is just putting a big spin on the fact that he's directing an episode of Glee. Nothing more than that.

However...of course Dollhouse is history. No one really expects it to be renewed, so this reading of tea leaves really is amateur night stuff.

It's really a shame - Dollhouse is probably the most sophisticated thing Whedon has done up to this point. I like it quite a bit, and when it's done the only fiction TV I'll still be watching is that dumb (so far) new Stargate series if and when it's rerunning late Friday nights while I'm falling asleep with the TV on.
 
So you're saying every time someone says "The show was cancelled because of low ratings" they're saying "You fucking idiot, you didn't watch the show so it's your fault. Fuck you"?
Nope. I'm saying that when the creator and writer of a show says a show is being cancelled because of low ratings, he's saying it's your fault for not watching, not his fault for creating a shitty product. With an implied "fuck you" as well for, obviously, not seeing the brilliance in all things touched by him. Especially in the context of the quote (which is concealed by self-demeaning humor to try and keep your attention off of it; a tactic of which so many people in this thread are apparently very susceptible to).
 
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