please can someone explain to me slipstream?

[Christopher]

We're assuming, or maybe it is just me assuming, that slipstream only has one speed because all faster-than-warp species we have encountered from the Borg to the Voth to Arturis have not mentioned more than one speed. It is either transwarp/slipstream/whatever.

How does that prove anything? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And we have direct on-camera evidence that slipstream has at least two speeds, because the speed depicted in the test flight in "Hope and Fear" is far, far lower than the speed depicted in "Timeless." Actually seeing it work at two different speeds should be conclusive proof.

There's also the fact that in Greater Than the Sum, I established outright that the cluster entity's slipstream is far faster than the slipstream drive the Borg assimilated from Arturis's people, which is what drives the whole plot of the book. So the idea of multiple slipstream speeds is already part of the novel continuity, and I should know because I'm the one who put it there.

 

[MNM]

There's also the fact that in Greater Than the Sum, I established outright that the cluster entity's slipstream is far faster than the slipstream drive the Borg assimilated from Arturis's people, which is what drives the whole plot of the book. So the idea of multiple slipstream speeds is already part of the novel continuity, and I should know because I'm the one who put it there.

Sure, but what is the reason for these different speeds in the first place? Is it due to the fact that each race/entity that has been shown using "slipstream" is actually using a slightly different version, therefore producing a different speed (in which, "slipstream" is really just a general catchall word to describe faster than warp travel rather than a specific method), or can one slipstream drive produce different velocities, like a warp drive can?

Because as far as I can tell, there is no slip stream factor 1, 2, 3, etc.. to move up, it's just engage slipstream and cruise at whatever the velocity that drive produces, and to get a faster velocity, you would need a different type of drive?

 

[JD]

So slipstream is like a better version of warp drive? I had thought it was more like opening a wormhole, or jumping into different dimensions or something.

 

[JarodRussell]

The problem with introducing better and better and better technology is that the galaxy soon will be way too small, and the fun gets lost. Stargate and Stargate Atlantis extremely suffered from that, in my opinion, and Voyager with its slipstream drive, too.

 

[Christopher]

Sure, but what is the reason for these different speeds in the first place? Is it due to the fact that each race/entity that has been shown using "slipstream" is actually using a slightly different version, therefore producing a different speed (in which, "slipstream" is really just a general catchall word to describe faster than warp travel rather than a specific method), or can one slipstream drive produce different velocities, like a warp drive can?

No, I think "transwarp" is a catchall word for faster-than-warp drives, but quantum slipstream is something more specific. As I explained it in GTTS, slipstream drive uses quantum manipulation of spacetime to achieve the same basic effects that warp drive achieves using gravitational (general-relativistic) manipulation of spacetime. So it's kind of like digital as opposed to analog: it gives you more power and precision but at the cost of a lot more computation being needed. That's why a slipstream vortex is hard to keep stable -- because it takes such intense, fast computation to make it work. The larger a slipstream vortex gets, the more its computational requirements get out of hand, so that imposes a limit on its size (which is why Borg cubes didn't use it). It would also probably impose a limit on speed as well; the more advanced a slipstream drive was, the greater its potential speed.

However, I see no reason why that wouldn't be its maximum speed as opposed to its only speed. I don't understand the logic of assuming that any propulsion system has only one possible speed. Every technology has levels of performance. You can always run it below its maximum capacity. And it makes sense for a slipstream drive to have "low gears" that require less intensive computation.

So slipstream is like a better version of warp drive? I had thought it was more like opening a wormhole, or jumping into different dimensions or something.

See above. On the show, they never explained a damn thing about what "quantum slipstream" was; it was just a couple of words they slapped together to sound all high-tech. That's the level of thought that went into VGR most of the time -- just slap some techy-sounding words together and pretend they mean something. (Like "coaxial warp drive." What the hell is that supposed to mean?) Sure, it looked like going through a tunnel of some kind, but there was no explanatory dialogue given. So I had a pretty clean slate when it came to concocting an explanation for this particular piece of technobabble.

The problem with introducing better and better and better technology is that the galaxy soon will be way too small, and the fun gets lost. Stargate and Stargate Atlantis extremely suffered from that, in my opinion, and Voyager with its slipstream drive, too.

Not necessarily. It's still a huge galaxy. If you race past portions of it, there's still a hell of a lot you've left unexplored, plenty of room for going back and making new discoveries.

Also, slipstream creates the potential for practical intergalactic travel. Just imagine the possibilities there.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Christopher, now I can see where you're coming from. I would postulate though that the Vesta-class ships have what could be termed as a 1st generation slipstream drive, one that is fairly basic, but after Captain Hernandez's assistance and knowledge, Starfleet were able to substantially improve on the design, creating a 2nd generation drive which Voyager and the other ships in the Full Circle fleet have. B'Elanna's ship probably has a 3rd generation slipstream drive which improves it still further, small enough to be used in shuttles the size of the delta flyer in time.

In Crusade, the B5 spin-off, the Excalibur could go faster in hyperspace than any other ship, but it was still hyperspace. Is this what you're essentially suggesting for the quantum slipstream drive?

 

[Christopher]

^Not really -- more like the difference between various types of warp drive. NX-01's warp drive could go faster than, say, the Horizon's, and NCC-1701's could go faster than NX-01's, and 1701-D's could go even faster, because each was more advanced than the previous one.

Or, to continue my "digital" analogy, it's like the way computers keep getting faster and more powerful. Maybe there's a Moore's Law of quantum slipstream.

 

[Steve Roby]

The problem with introducing better and better and better technology is that the galaxy soon will be way too small, and the fun gets lost.

Even if the travel time decreases dramatically, there are so many stars in this galaxy that it would still take a long time to visit them all. Estimates appear to range from a hundred billion to four hundred billion stars in our galaxy alone. That is a hell of a lot to explore.

Small universe syndrome is the result of a failure to understand just how big a place our galaxy is.

 

[JarodRussell]

Small universe syndrome is the result of a failure to understand just how big a place our galaxy is.

It's rather the result of how small a fictional universe feels when they always can get back to Earth in a day.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Personally, I welcome slipstream as the successor to warp drive. It's still in its infancy and the Federation will still be building ships with conventional warp drives for quite awhile yet, IMO, but I think even if slipstream becomes the standard, the Galaxy will still be a pretty big place to play around in.

 

[MNM]

No, I think "transwarp" is a catchall word for faster-than-warp drives, but quantum slipstream is something more specific.

Well I meant I was using "slipstream" as a catchall due to the idea that the different speeds produced by different people with it, were due to the drives being used, being different somewhat on a technical level, even if the general idea behind the drives was basically the same. Transwarp is a better term if you take every type of faster than warp travel sure. But really, slipstream, transwarp, they're all good names.

However, I see no reason why that wouldn't be its maximum speed as opposed to its only speed. I don't understand the logic of assuming that any propulsion system has only one possible speed. Every technology has levels of performance. You can always run it below its maximum capacity. And it makes sense for a slipstream drive to have "low gears" that require less intensive computation.

The only reason I assume the drives have only one speed is because that is what everything, books and tv, have shown to be the case so far (unless I have missed something). You engage slipstream, you travel at a certain speed based on the specific slipstream drive you have.

Which, personally, I have no problem with. It implies that slipstream is fundamentally different from warp (which I think faster than warp travel should be, rather than it being a simple extension of the warp drives to begin with), ie, you use your drive to create the slipstream tunnel and depending on how advanced your drive is, the tunnel (for want of a better word) is created to a certain refinement which allows you to then move through at the speed allowed by such refinement, no faster, no slower.

If you improve on your drive, you create a more refined tunnel and travel at a faster velocity.

If you can get slower slipstream speeds by performing "less intensive computations" as you said, then really, how different is it from warp? At a technical level it would be sure, but for all intents and purposes it would appear to be nothing more than basically warp 11,12, 13 etc.. and from a creative standpoint, I think having slipstream be a one speed only, depending on the drive, to be a better take on the idea.

 

[Christopher]

The only reason I assume the drives have only one speed is because that is what everything, books and tv, have shown to be the case so far (unless I have missed something). You engage slipstream, you travel at a certain speed based on the specific slipstream drive you have.

You're misinformed. In "Hope and Fear," when Voyager achieves slipstream velocity to pursue the Dauntless, Tuvok asks Tom, "Is there any way to increase our speed?" Tom replies, "None. We're at maximum." If slipstream drive has a maximum speed, it must therefore, by definition, have more than one speed.

Minutes later, when Arturis detects Janeway and Seven's efforts to tamper with the Dauntless's slipstream, Seven reports, "The ship's velocity has just increased. At our present speed, we will enter Borg space in less than twelve minutes." When they try to tamper further, Arturis tells Janeway, "You can slow this ship down, but you can't stop it."

So we know for a canonical fact that slipstream drive is capable of multiple speeds.

If you can get slower slipstream speeds by performing "less intensive computations" as you said, then really, how different is it from warp?

That's a very odd question. A car can drive as slowly as a bicycle, but it's capable of -- and usually used for -- much greater speed. Just because there's some overlap in their capabilities doesn't mean one isn't substantially and meaningfully different from the other.

 

[MNM]

You're misinformed. In "Hope and Fear,"...

Ok, so multiple slipstream speeds have been stated, I missed that, fair enough. I still prefer my one speed idea but thats neither here nor there.

That's a very odd question. A car can drive as slowly as a bicycle, but it's capable of -- and usually used for -- much greater speed. Just because there's some overlap in their capabilities doesn't mean one isn't substantially and meaningfully different from the other.

I disagree. First, I think your analagy is wrong, as a bicycle is quite clearly a different method of travel than a car. The differences between the two, the uses each are put to, and the limitations that each posses is quite easy to pick up and see on screen.

If the slipstream drive can give you different speeds which you switch between when you need a speed faster than warp 9 point whatever, then it is really no different than if you could simply have your ship increase to warp 10 or 11, using the standard warp drive you already have, to provide the required speed.

To refer back to your analagy, I view a multiple speed slipstream drive, and switching between them if warp isnt fast enough, to have no real difference than driving a car and simply changing gears so you can go faster when you need to. Whereas a drive that is as different enough from a warp drive as I think it should be and having to switch between the use of each when more speed is required or wanted, would be akin to watching someone ditch his bike and get a car because he needs more speed.

It's just a matter of personal taste, and I would prefer that any method of faster than warp travel is different enough to warrant it being a different method in the first place, instead of it realistically being nothing more than an extension of the method already in use.

 

[Christopher]

I don't see what the big deal is. Quantum slipstream was just a gimmick that was made up in a VGR episode, one of various cavalier handwaves they concocted for travel faster than warp. It was never meant to be anything more than just a way of going real fast. No more thought was put into it than that. They used it a couple of times and forgot about it. But it became part of the backstory and the editors of Pocket have chosen to acknowledge it and develop the logical consequences of its introduction. Which means, quite simply, that Starfleet gets to go a lot faster. Period.

Besides, I think you're understating just what a radical difference in speeds we're talking about. Even a "slow" slipstream drive like that of the Dauntless allows you to achieve in 3 months what would otherwise have taken 60 years -- that's 240 times faster. The version used in "Timeless" and the novels allows that same distance to be covered in mere days -- more than 7000 times faster than warp. My car/bike analogy was just to make a conceptual point; the real difference in speeds here is immensely greater. It's a magnitude difference comparable to the difference between impulse speed and warp speed. So complaining that they aren't different enough because they both have variable speeds is pretty much missing the forest for the trees.

 

[MNM]

I don't see what the big deal is.

Well there is none, I'm simply arguing my personal preference for the thing since a thread discussing it exists.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Christopher, Arturis' slipstream drive may have had multiple speeds, but there's no evidence from what you or David Mack has written which implies Starfleet's do. Remember that the slipstream drive was his race's method of FTL travel, just as warp was to Voyager. Maybe when Starfleet is able to refine the technology further and benamite crystals are able to be found/synthesised, Starfleet will get faster slipstream.

After all, Cochrane's Phoenix was only capable of warp 1, the speed of light. Eventually, with better technology, faster speeds were accomplished.

 

[Christopher]

Christopher, Arturis' slipstream drive may have had multiple speeds, but there's no evidence from what you or David Mack has written which implies Starfleet's do.

I don't see the logic of that assumption. Starfleet's slipstream drive is directly based on the technology of the Dauntless. It's an improvement on that technology in a number of ways. How could it have less functionality?

And there's certainly nothing I, Dave, or Kirsten has written which implies that Starfleet slipstream can't achieve multiple velocities. Granted, Unworthy does use the phrase "slipstream velocity," but it's ambiguous; two of the specified distance/time relations (3000 ly in 8 minutes on p. 31 and over 20,000 ly in 60 minutes on p. 92) correspond to roughly the same speed, but a third reference is more ambiguous; p. 73-76 refers to a 20,000-ly flight that began 5 hours before and ended an unspecified time in between. Maybe there is a default, preferred slipstream speed, but that's hardly evidence that it's impossible to achieve any other, and I still see no grounds for even conjecturing such a bizarre notion.

Anyway, the theory of slipstream I described in Greater Than the Sum certainly contains within it the inherent assumption that slipstream technology is capable of achieving any desired speed. The drive uses quantum manipulation to modify the curvature of spacetime, allowing that modification to be done with far more precision and control than warp drive is capable of. That enables it to create spacetime metrics that allow for far higher speeds. Logically, it follows that greater control and precision would translate to a greater ability to adjust speed, not a complete absence of such capability.

Remember that the slipstream drive was his race's method of FTL travel, just as warp was to Voyager. Maybe when Starfleet is able to refine the technology further and benamite crystals are able to be found/synthesised, Starfleet will get faster slipstream.

As discussed earlier, Starfleet's slipstream is already immensely faster than what Arturis's slipstream was reportedly capable of. "Hope and Fear" said the drive could cover 60,000 ly in 3 months; "Timeless" showed 10,000 ly covered in what appeared to be only a minute or two of screen time. Unworthy seems to suggest a standard slipstream speed of 350-400 ly/min, or more than 250 times faster than Arturis's drive.

 

[Angstromdweller]

Has it been explained where the benamite crystals are found and why they are so rare?

Is it possible to achive much lower speeds with slipstream, like for example the equivalent of warp 7, or would it become unstable in that case?

 

[BrotherBenny]

Arturis' reports of his ship's speeds were nonsense since it travelled a great deal faster than he said in that very episode. Almost everything he said regarding the ship's capabilities is probably a lie.

I'll accept that there is the possibility of multiple speeds of slipstream, but isn't it therefore theoretically possible, with a fast-enough computer, to travel at *shudders* transwarp-salamander speed without actually turning into salamanders?

 

[wizkid]

What was the drive in the TNG show they tested but could not get to work?