You don't like my choice of words but you have done nothing to refute them other than calling me a troll (which is untrue I actually believe what I said.) The type of argument you are using is known as ad hominem. It is used often by people who are unable to refute the point made by the opponent, and by many Fox News personalities. If you don't have anything useful to add then please don't try to derail the discussion.
In Defense of the Occupation
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You don't like my choice of words but you have done nothing to refute them other than calling me a troll (which is untrue I actually believe what I said.) The type of argument you are using is known as ad hominem. It is used often by people who are unable to refute the point made by the opponent, and by many Fox News personalities. If you don't have anything useful to add then please don't try to derail the discussion.
There is no such thing as a "superior" or "inferior" race.
This is not a discussion. Your points are ludicrous. Do you really think it's the destiny of "superior races" to rule above the "inferior ones" like "Negros" and "barbarous Hebrews"? Don't we had a war about that some years ago? Or another, if you wanna go back further?
Maybe you get your funny from this, but it's just sad.
There is nothing funny about this. I see there is nobody among these Philistines that are able to have an intelligent discussion about something that makes them uneasy.
Spacebrotha, please believe me when I say that I honestly don't mean to offend you, but I don't find this conversation "uncomfortable." I find it pointless. And - sorry - kinda boring.
I can't say we've ever before had somebody flat-out say "Where would America be now if it had not had the mighty Negros to tend her fields and fight her wars?" but we've had lots of apologists for the Bajoran occupation here on the BBS before, and so the subject is neither so provocative nor original as you seem to suppose.
I, at least, have written lots about it, and I am reluctant to write it all yet again, particularly when you have clearly made up your mind, either in favor of the occupation or in favor of getting folks here on the BBS all riled up. I won't speculate as to which I think is more likely, at least not in this post.
I can't say we've ever before had somebody flat-out say "Where would America be now if it had not had the mighty Negros to tend her fields and fight her wars?" but we've had lots of apologists for the Bajoran occupation here on the BBS before, and so the subject is neither so provocative nor original as you seem to suppose.
I, at least, have written lots about it, and I am reluctant to write it all yet again, particularly when you have clearly made up your mind, either in favor of the occupation or in favor of getting folks here on the BBS all riled up. I won't speculate as to which I think is more likely, at least not in this post.
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Good idea, SpaceBrotha, I'm sure you will find other places on the web where you ideas will be more welcome.
What idea?
I thought as much.
I think it is nonsense that the idea that enslaving and subjugating an entire species to "enlighten" them is an acceptable practice. The Cardassians did what they did because they had the strength to do it so they could benefit their empire by strip mining the planet and using the population to do the work. At no point did they treat the Bajorans with respect or any sense of equality.
The Cardassians committed massacres before they left. Then as they were leaving they poisoned land to create famine and starvation amongst the Bajorans. They supported an attempted coup against the government. They kidnapped and tortured people from Bajor, forces women (and probably men) into prostitution, they stole religious artefacts and resources. I find it next to impossible to believe that the quality of life of the Bajorans got better due to Cardassian occupation.
Racial superiority, manifest destiny, social "darwinists", genocide apologists... the list is long, and the web is full of wackos.
^ I believe that he is referring to the notion that subjugating an entire world, strip mining it's mineral resources (in fact I would go so far as to say that it counts as an act of planetary rape), and causing the deaths of over 10 million innocent Bajorians counts as a beneficial act.
Now, If you had said that the Cardassians took Bajor solely for its resources then I would have agreed with you and hailed your honesty, after all most (of not all) empires have operated on that goal.
As one of the boards resident Cardassians (that is a huge fan of the MSBs) I would like to take the opportunely to completely disagree with your interpenetration of the Occupation. What the Cardassians did to Bajor would count as one of the worse crimes ever committed by their society. There is evidence of a number of prominent (and not so prominent) Cardassians with the moral and intellectual courage to face up to this basic fact and to try to force their countrypeople to accept the truth.
I come from a Nation that once conquered a quarter of the world so our history is repete with a number of the same Imperialistic and arrogant self justifications for that Empire.
Furthermore as a European, I'm rather...concerned by your mistaken views on the nature of RL humanity.
You can't defend the indefensible.
Now, If you had said that the Cardassians took Bajor solely for its resources then I would have agreed with you and hailed your honesty, after all most (of not all) empires have operated on that goal.
As one of the boards resident Cardassians (that is a huge fan of the MSBs) I would like to take the opportunely to completely disagree with your interpenetration of the Occupation. What the Cardassians did to Bajor would count as one of the worse crimes ever committed by their society. There is evidence of a number of prominent (and not so prominent) Cardassians with the moral and intellectual courage to face up to this basic fact and to try to force their countrypeople to accept the truth.
I come from a Nation that once conquered a quarter of the world so our history is repete with a number of the same Imperialistic and arrogant self justifications for that Empire.
Furthermore as a European, I'm rather...concerned by your mistaken views on the nature of RL humanity.
You can't defend the indefensible.
As Loki points out, there WERE Cardassians who were able to see the truth of the Occupation and realize how evil it was. People like Natima Lang, Aamin Marritza, and Tekeny Ghemor all knew. And I, too, as a HUGE Cardassian fan, see the truth as well. If Bajoran society suffered, it was because there were some who absorbed the worst of their oppressors and allowed themselves to become what they hated. That does not mean the Bajoran race is weak or inferior, but it further amplifies the magnitude of what the Cardassians did. In the end, though, those INDIVIDUALS are responsible for their choices, just the same as the Cardassians who chose to commit atrocities instead of standing up for what was right.
But I'm not going to go any further than to state what ought to be the obvious--what is also obvious to me is that this is an attempt at flame-baiting, and I see no need to feed into it.
But I'm not going to go any further than to state what ought to be the obvious--what is also obvious to me is that this is an attempt at flame-baiting, and I see no need to feed into it.
^Agreed, that's why I'm doing what the Cardassian Union should have done, namely to withdraw.
By that reasoning, I guess the Jews should be pretty thankful for what the Nazis did to them.
So you are either a troll, or an idiot.
Yeah, that's pretty much the general consensus thus far.By that reasoning, I guess the Jews should be pretty thankful for what the Nazis did to them.
So you are either a troll, or an idiot.
I know this is probably a joke- the wording makes me assume so, and to be honest I far prefer that interpretation to the belief that this is a serious post- but it's a very uncomfortable one. I'm not used to the DS9 forum being uncomfortable. As the Iquana said upthread, it's sad to see people apparently getting their jollies through this sort of thing.
Ideas of "inferiority" and the concept of growth through war have been used to excuse violence and suffering throughout history. What was the "benefit" of such activity? Nothing. True strength is found in alliance, co-operation and mutual compassion, of joining in common cause to support and enhance one another. Conquest, militarism, subjugation of others, wars of aggression; these are never justifiable and harm not only the victimized nation but the aggressor nation too.
My nation once embraced the "we're enlightening these inferior peoples" excuse wholeheartedly as "justification" for its imperialism and resource-grabbing. We came to truly believe it, which is, I would suggest, even more dangerous than honest "we're subjugating and killing people because they're in our way and we want their stuff". The reason it is more dangerous is because once you are assured that there is a "moral" motivation for it, your conscience is appeased and you don't have to confront it anymore. We British and our European neighbours all continued with the self-delusion until our imperalistic attitudes all fed into the First World War, and the fallout from that contributed to the Second World War. That's where such attitudes lead- not to betterment but to destruction. Which is what happened to Cardassia, too. Is Cardassia "better" now it's a smouldering ball of ash? If Cardassia had truly approached Bajor as a friend and ally, both Bajor and Cardassia would be whole today (so to speak...)
Ideas of "inferiority" and the concept of growth through war have been used to excuse violence and suffering throughout history. What was the "benefit" of such activity? Nothing. True strength is found in alliance, co-operation and mutual compassion, of joining in common cause to support and enhance one another. Conquest, militarism, subjugation of others, wars of aggression; these are never justifiable and harm not only the victimized nation but the aggressor nation too.
My nation once embraced the "we're enlightening these inferior peoples" excuse wholeheartedly as "justification" for its imperialism and resource-grabbing. We came to truly believe it, which is, I would suggest, even more dangerous than honest "we're subjugating and killing people because they're in our way and we want their stuff". The reason it is more dangerous is because once you are assured that there is a "moral" motivation for it, your conscience is appeased and you don't have to confront it anymore. We British and our European neighbours all continued with the self-delusion until our imperalistic attitudes all fed into the First World War, and the fallout from that contributed to the Second World War. That's where such attitudes lead- not to betterment but to destruction. Which is what happened to Cardassia, too. Is Cardassia "better" now it's a smouldering ball of ash? If Cardassia had truly approached Bajor as a friend and ally, both Bajor and Cardassia would be whole today (so to speak...)
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Ignoring the failed-troll; but really?
Really. It's usually in the form of somebody talking about what a wonderful guy Dukat is, and by extension, how the occupation wasn't really that bad. I disagree rather strongly, as you can probably tell.
The OP has one thing right: slavery and abject exploitation has been the backbone of damn near every "great" civilization the world has ever seen. America still runs on slave labor, it's just located off-shore. Humanity is a blight, what are you gonna do?
You Brits (Loki Dukat and Deranged Nasat) make this Yank proud to know you. Lord knows the US has its own moments in history that are far from shining examples. I'll assume all of us have been to history classes enough to know which ones I'm talking about. What's important is learning from the mistakes so that we don't make them again. Enough episodes of genocide have happened in my lifetime for me to see that all it really takes is one force with overwhelming might, one group with desired resources, and a tremendous amount of apathy and turning a blind eye from the rest of the world for these things to happen.
Oddly enough, some of the most moving words I've seen dealing with this issue come from Andrew J. Robinson's book "A Stitch in Time" writing from the perspective of Elim Garak. It's a long passage, but I think it strikes right to the heart of the matter:
"Fear and isolation, Doctor. You can't have one without the other. Fear isolates and isolation is fear's natural home. Just as my orchids need carefully prepared soil to protect them against disease and pests, fear needs the isolated circumstances to deepen and grow without connective or relational interference. When fear is allowed to flourish in its dark and lonely medium, then any evil that can be conceived by the fearful imagination will emerge.
The death toll rises every day. We are now over the one billion mark. This is a numbing, dry statistic. I'm certain that when you read this, Doctor, you will have a disturbed reaction. Others will rationalize that the figure is commensurate with Cardassian complicity. And a third group will simply shrug: it's not their problem. My reaction would probably have been a combination of the latter two. Like most people, I want to get on with the business of my life and what's done is done and doesn't warrant any further loss of sleep or appetite.
Our med unit has been converted into a burial unit. It's a logical progression; the survivors have all been accounted for and only the dead remain unclaimed. More immediate, of course, is the potential for decaying corpses to spread disease. So every day now I am engaged in the hardest work of my life; I find that nothing has prepared me for this. My feelings are spent, my moral rationalizations are empty, and I can't say it's not my problem when I'm pulling and lifting and throwing bodies of people who once only wanted to go about the business of their lives.
A Federation official suggested that we simply vaporize all the corpses. Underneath the suggestion was the judgment that our burial customs are archaic and morbid. At first I became angry and wanted to berate him for his lack of sensitivity as well as for his own culture's morbidity in representing death as sanitary and disassociated from life. But I realized that we were no better. We created technologies that dispensed death efficiently and from a distance; we never took responsibility for our personal actions because we were in the service of a greater good--the Cardassian state. Colonel Kira once told me how many Bajorans died during the Cardassian Occupation, and my mind rejected the figure like a piece of garbage. We'd been in the service of the state, I had told myself, and the state had determined what was necessary. But now I understood why she hated me. More important, I now understood the constant burning, almost insane look in her eyes.
Most of us who are left, Doctor, are insane. We have to be in order to survive and emerge from our isolation. It's the only way we can live with the pain of what we did. Or didn't. Each of us accepts the amount of responsibility we are capable of bearing. Some accept nothing, and these people are quickly swallowed by their isolation, their insanity transformed into a rationalized evil. A smaller group accepts total responsibility, and their insanity is an unbearable burden that cripples and eventually grinds them down. The rest of us carry what we can and leave the rest. For myself, Doctor, when a corpse is too heavy to bury I try to remember to ask someone to help me."
Rwanda. Darfur. Northern Iraq. We all just want to get on with our lives. They did, too.
Oddly enough, some of the most moving words I've seen dealing with this issue come from Andrew J. Robinson's book "A Stitch in Time" writing from the perspective of Elim Garak. It's a long passage, but I think it strikes right to the heart of the matter:
"Fear and isolation, Doctor. You can't have one without the other. Fear isolates and isolation is fear's natural home. Just as my orchids need carefully prepared soil to protect them against disease and pests, fear needs the isolated circumstances to deepen and grow without connective or relational interference. When fear is allowed to flourish in its dark and lonely medium, then any evil that can be conceived by the fearful imagination will emerge.
The death toll rises every day. We are now over the one billion mark. This is a numbing, dry statistic. I'm certain that when you read this, Doctor, you will have a disturbed reaction. Others will rationalize that the figure is commensurate with Cardassian complicity. And a third group will simply shrug: it's not their problem. My reaction would probably have been a combination of the latter two. Like most people, I want to get on with the business of my life and what's done is done and doesn't warrant any further loss of sleep or appetite.
Our med unit has been converted into a burial unit. It's a logical progression; the survivors have all been accounted for and only the dead remain unclaimed. More immediate, of course, is the potential for decaying corpses to spread disease. So every day now I am engaged in the hardest work of my life; I find that nothing has prepared me for this. My feelings are spent, my moral rationalizations are empty, and I can't say it's not my problem when I'm pulling and lifting and throwing bodies of people who once only wanted to go about the business of their lives.
A Federation official suggested that we simply vaporize all the corpses. Underneath the suggestion was the judgment that our burial customs are archaic and morbid. At first I became angry and wanted to berate him for his lack of sensitivity as well as for his own culture's morbidity in representing death as sanitary and disassociated from life. But I realized that we were no better. We created technologies that dispensed death efficiently and from a distance; we never took responsibility for our personal actions because we were in the service of a greater good--the Cardassian state. Colonel Kira once told me how many Bajorans died during the Cardassian Occupation, and my mind rejected the figure like a piece of garbage. We'd been in the service of the state, I had told myself, and the state had determined what was necessary. But now I understood why she hated me. More important, I now understood the constant burning, almost insane look in her eyes.
Most of us who are left, Doctor, are insane. We have to be in order to survive and emerge from our isolation. It's the only way we can live with the pain of what we did. Or didn't. Each of us accepts the amount of responsibility we are capable of bearing. Some accept nothing, and these people are quickly swallowed by their isolation, their insanity transformed into a rationalized evil. A smaller group accepts total responsibility, and their insanity is an unbearable burden that cripples and eventually grinds them down. The rest of us carry what we can and leave the rest. For myself, Doctor, when a corpse is too heavy to bury I try to remember to ask someone to help me."
Rwanda. Darfur. Northern Iraq. We all just want to get on with our lives. They did, too.
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