Who is a good Asian role models in Trek...?

[DevilEyes]

Also for what it's worth, I like Keiko O'Brien. I know a lot of people don't, but I do.

I'm with you, I've just never understood the Keiko-hate.

Neither did I. I liked Keiko just fine.

Oh, and Kegg, with you having a Wixiban avatar, this finally feels like home again.

Because Keiko was a whiny, fickle, individuality-sucking life-leach. [...] A couple is not One. They are two individuals in a partnership. Keiko showed no awareness of that. She tried to own Miles like a tricorder.

Keiko was smothering. [...] Also, people who lack the patience to raise a child who's supposed to be an adult. People who expect a spouse to be an equal - not a neurotic child in an adult's body.

What the fuck, how the hell did you form that image of Keiko? I mean, I saw each and every appearance of that character in both The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine and not once did they portray her as particularly 'whiny' or 'fickle'. Can you cite episodes/scenes where you felt this happened? Also, I don't get where anything she ever did made her come off as 'individuality-sucking', 'smothering' or 'a neurotic child in an adult's body'. Did we watch the same series? I can't think of one instance where I got that impression.

I don't know what they're talking about, either. I dislike that type of character described here, but Keiko never struck me as such.

And I do know - and hate - the cliche of the whiny, naggy wife, which I know well from a dozen of cop shows and movies, because, for some reason, almost every cop's wife has to be an incessant whiner who keeps complaining and complaining that oh, her husband works too much and is not home enough - because the wife is just a means to show the audience that our hero is so dedicated to his work and it is putting such stress on his private life... (For a Trek version of a whiny wife, look to Trek literature - Karrys from The Day of the Vipers is a perfect example of the stereotype described above. Ugh, did I hate her while reading the book. Now that's the real immature whiner, not Keiko.)

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Jasminder Choudhury from the novels is tough gal....

 

[Thestral]

Because Keiko was a whiny, fickle, individuality-sucking life-leach. [...] A couple is not One. They are two individuals in a partnership. Keiko showed no awareness of that. She tried to own Miles like a tricorder.

Keiko was smothering. [...] Also, people who lack the patience to raise a child who's supposed to be an adult. People who expect a spouse to be an equal - not a neurotic child in an adult's body.

What the fuck, how the hell did you form that image of Keiko? I mean, I saw each and every appearance of that character in both The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine and not once did they portray her as particularly 'whiny' or 'fickle'. Can you cite episodes/scenes where you felt this happened? Also, I don't get where anything she ever did made her come off as 'individuality-sucking', 'smothering' or 'a neurotic child in an adult's body'. Did we watch the same series? I can't think of one instance where I got that impression.

Strongly agreed. I mean, the woman ran a school on DS9 for two years, including after it got blown up by religious zealots, and willingly set aside her career and goals to be with her family.

 

[captcalhoun]

it's probably just the way she shrieks MMMYYYY-ULES!!!!

put my teeth on edge.

 

[Kegg]

Oh, and Kegg, with you having a Wixiban avatar, this finally feels like home again.

Yup. I considered going with something else, but hell, Wixiban just felt right.

What the fuck, how the hell did you form that image of Keiko? I mean, I saw each and every appearance of that character in both The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine and not once did they portray her as particularly 'whiny' or 'fickle'. Can you cite episodes/scenes where you felt this happened? Also, I don't get where anything she ever did made her come off as 'individuality-sucking', 'smothering' or 'a neurotic child in an adult's body'. Did we watch the same series? I can't think of one instance where I got that impression.

This, exactly. Keiko struck me as largely a fairly realistic depiction of a wife. She can nag O'Brien at times, but she loves him and vice versa. It's clearly depicted as a relationship that works for them rather than one that's distintegrating. She's also very accomodating at times - given that initially she had to sacrifice much of her career just to live with Miles on DS9.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Oh, and Kegg, with you having a Wixiban avatar, this finally feels like home again.

Yup. I considered going with something else, but hell, Wixiban just felt right.

What the fuck, how the hell did you form that image of Keiko? I mean, I saw each and every appearance of that character in both The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine and not once did they portray her as particularly 'whiny' or 'fickle'. Can you cite episodes/scenes where you felt this happened? Also, I don't get where anything she ever did made her come off as 'individuality-sucking', 'smothering' or 'a neurotic child in an adult's body'. Did we watch the same series? I can't think of one instance where I got that impression.

This, exactly. Keiko struck me as largely a fairly realistic depiction of a wife. She can nag O'Brien at times, but she loves him and vice versa. It's clearly depicted as a relationship that works for them rather than one that's distintegrating. She's also very accomodating at times - given that initially she had to sacrifice much of her career just to live with Miles on DS9.

^^

I wouldn't say a woman who is controlling and argumentative--I'm not saying Keiko is controlling and argumentative, but some see her that way--is a fairly realistic....

Maybe to some people, depending on THEIR relationships; but it goes both ways. As adults, a man and woman both should be able to speak to one another in a mature manner. Granted there will be disagreements, but there is something called compromise...

{I'm speaking a bit from experience, of course...}

Now, in Keiko's defense: The woman was raising kids...she wasn't an officer...and had to deal with changes going on in her life due to being married to a Starfleet officer...as another poster earlier brought out.

 

[Cyke101]

Yikes. I like Keiko, but I ain't touchin the above discussion with a ten-foot pole.

Also, I sorely wished Ogawa had been present for the last two TNG movies. I don't know what she could contribute, but it's always fun to see her.

I like Kim and Sato (well, aside from Kim being the least developed of all of Voyager, second only to Mayweather in all of Trek), but my one problem with those two was that they were the least confident of their respective main crews. They weren't stupid or cowardly by any means, but they were the most nervous and most green.

Take Sulu, a(n iconic) character who just oozes gravitas and eventually captains his own ship, and Keiko, who puts up with weird shit on the flagship AND the most important outpost in the Federation, all the while maintaining a family and careers in education and botany, and there's a pretty big discrepancy compared to Kim and Sato.

I'll give Sato some credit, though; as Enterprise went on, her character kept getting stronger and stronger as she became more sure of herself.

 

[DevilEyes]

Jasminder Choudhury from the novels is tough gal....

This brings up the point, or we talking about "Asian" in the sense of the word that Americans use it (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc...) or are we talking about Indian/Pakistani people ("South Asian", or "Asian" in UK terminology)? It seems that this thread is about the former.

 

[Cyke101]

Jasminder Choudhury from the novels is tough gal....

This brings up the point, or we talking about "Asian" in the sense of the word that Americans use it (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc...) or are we talking about Indian/Pakistani people ("South Asian", or "Asian" in UK terminology)? It seems that this thread is about the former.

Well, America is increasingly adopting the idea that people from South and West Asia are indeed Asians. Though the US Census still counts Middle Eastern as its own group (contrary to the UN, which counts the "Mid-East" as Asian), citizens of Indian/Pakistani/Afghanisti/etc origin all count as an Asian -American demographic.

For that matter, I realize this is up for debate, but I'd like to think that Dr. Bashir counts as Asian-British. His parents are South Asian and the Bashir name is fairly common in India, even though Alexander Siddig himself is Sudanese and not Asian.

 

[DevilEyes]

Jasminder Choudhury from the novels is tough gal....

This brings up the point, or we talking about "Asian" in the sense of the word that Americans use it (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc...) or are we talking about Indian/Pakistani people ("South Asian", or "Asian" in UK terminology)? It seems that this thread is about the former.

Well, America is increasingly adopting the idea that people from South and West Asia are indeed Asians. Though the US Census still counts Middle Eastern as its own group (contrary to the UN, which counts the "Mid-East" as Asian), citizens of Indian/Pakistani/Afghanisti/etc origin all count as an Asian -American demographic.

For that matter, I realize this is up for debate, but I'd like to think that Dr. Bashir counts as Asian-British. His parents are South Asian and the Bashir name is fairly common in India, even though Alexander Siddig himself is Sudanese and not Asian.

In India? Really? Can you name the source for this? I can't pretend to be an expert, but 'Bashir' doesn't sound Indian to me and the only real life people named Bashir I know of are Omar al-Bashir, the president of Sudan, and Bashir Gemayel (Bashir was his first name), the late Lebanese politician (see also: the movie "Waltz with Bashir").

And anyway, by that logic, you should be calling Americans of Arab North-African descent "African Americans"? Somehow I don't think that would go down well...

Come to think of it, why doesn't anyone speak of "European Americans"? Why is it always "Italian American", "Irish American..." etc. instead? So people of European origin are allowed versatility, but OTOH you lump an entire continent (Asia) together?

 

[Cyke101]

This brings up the point, or we talking about "Asian" in the sense of the word that Americans use it (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc...) or are we talking about Indian/Pakistani people ("South Asian", or "Asian" in UK terminology)? It seems that this thread is about the former.

Well, America is increasingly adopting the idea that people from South and West Asia are indeed Asians. Though the US Census still counts Middle Eastern as its own group (contrary to the UN, which counts the "Mid-East" as Asian), citizens of Indian/Pakistani/Afghanisti/etc origin all count as an Asian -American demographic.

For that matter, I realize this is up for debate, but I'd like to think that Dr. Bashir counts as Asian-British. His parents are South Asian and the Bashir name is fairly common in India, even though Alexander Siddig himself is Sudanese and not Asian.

In India? Really? Can you name the source for this? I can't pretend to be an expert, but 'Bashir' doesn't sound Indian to me and the only real life people named Bashir I know of are Omar al-Bashir, the president of Sudan, and Bashir Gemayel (Bashir was his first name), the late Lebanese politician (see also: the movie "Waltz with Bashir").

I'm mistaken, in that it's not Indian but more Muslim anyway. For example, Abu Bakar Bashir is ethnically Indonesian (half Javanese, specifically). Still, like I said, I wouldn't mind thinking of Bashir as South Asian in some sense anyway, as the actors who portrayed his biological parents are themselves South Asian.

But yeah, it was silly of me to identify the name Bashir with India, as if the name Smith could only be British and not American or Canadian. But I would still say there are a few Bashirs in India, if only as part of their Muslim population.

And anyway, by that logic, you should be calling Americans of Arab North-African descent "African Americans"? Somehow I don't think that would go down well...

Actually, I would. A few taxicab unions here in Chicago, for example, count countries like Sudan as African when they survey their member populations. Sometimes it's about the region you call your origin, not necessarily the actual ethnicity, if that's how you choose to define yourself.

Come to think of it, why doesn't anyone speak of "European Americans"? Why is it always "Italian American", "Irish American..." etc. instead? So people of European origin are allowed versatility, but OTOH you lump an entire continent (Asia) together?

You can still break up Asian into Vietnamese-American, Filipino-American, etc etc. After all, there's the Japanese American Citizens League, Chinatown, Indian Film Festivals, etc. etc. etc. But I'll leave this for others to answer. Again, it depends on how you want to classify it.

Besides, the question became "what counts as Asian." If the topic were about "What counts as European," then certainly Irish, Italian, etc. etc. would come up, especially in census and NPO standings.

 

[Kegg]

This brings up the point, or we talking about "Asian" in the sense of the word that Americans use it (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc...) or are we talking about Indian/Pakistani people ("South Asian", or "Asian" in UK terminology)? It seems that this thread is about the former.

Aside from Bashir, there aren't any major Star Trek characters from anywhere else in Asia, so it's not a big point.

However, the other two threads are mostly assuming racial boundaries (blacks, be they American or sub-Saharan African in origin) rather than geographic ones, and to the best of my knowledge 'Asian' is the accepted term for people ethnically from East Asia.

 

[captcalhoun]

Bashir's mum was played by an Arab-American, his dad by a British-Israeli. he's clearly of partial Mid-Eastern ethnicity

 

[Cyke101]

Bashir's mum was played by an Arab-American, his dad by a British-Israeli. he's clearly of partial Mid-Eastern ethnicity

Geeze, I'm clearly not batting 1.000 today, huh? I'm flailing here.

Still, if you want to go by the Wiki designation, then Israel and the Middle East count as Asian

 

[Myasishchev]

This brings up the point, or we talking about "Asian" in the sense of the word that Americans use it (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc...) or are we talking about Indian/Pakistani people ("South Asian", or "Asian" in UK terminology)? It seems that this thread is about the former.

Aside from Bashir, there aren't any major Star Trek characters from anywhere else in Asia, so it's not a big point..

Khan: not a role model?

 

[Kegg]

This brings up the point, or we talking about "Asian" in the sense of the word that Americans use it (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc...) or are we talking about Indian/Pakistani people ("South Asian", or "Asian" in UK terminology)? It seems that this thread is about the former.

Aside from Bashir, there aren't any major Star Trek characters from anywhere else in Asia, so it's not a big point..

Khan: not a role model?

Obviously not, but that doesn't excuse me forgetting about him. It's probably because Ricardo Montalban tends not to strike one as very Sikh-looking, but yeah, he's pretty big.

 

[Sector 7]

My vote is wholeheartedly for Hikaru Sulu. A strong male role model who is athletic, decisive, intelligent and earned a captaincy. The sad thought that the actor's (or even a character's) sexual orientation would be a negative proves that some people are not ready to join Federation society yet.

 

[JuanBolio]

I think in singling out specific races and ethnicities in which to seek role models in Star Trek, we kind of miss one of the fundamental points of the show - That anyone can do anything regardless of race, background, or place of origin. That kind of thing just doesn't matter in that world, nor should it in ours.

It always frustrates me when someones makes a point of some hero Navy pilot being female, or some big-shot lawyer or activist being black. I just don't see how their gender or race is at all a factor that needs mentioning.

 

[captcalhoun]

too right!

 

[StarryEyed]

It always frustrates me when someones makes a point of some hero Navy pilot being female, or some big-shot lawyer or activist being black. I just don't see how their gender or race is at all a factor that needs mentioning.

It doesn't need to be mentioned to enlightened people but unfortunately, there are still those who do need to hear it. We've come a long way in the last 50 years but we still have a way to go.