Never read it. What exactly happened?
'CORRECT' OUTCOME OF KOBAYASHI MARU?
- Thread starter Lazarus
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
I can think of no circumstance in which the glassing of a planet inhabited by millions of civilians in a first strike could help the Federation. These billions of civilians pose no threat to the federation whatsoever - they can't turn into soldiers and build a billion ships overnight. Their genocide, however, will surely incite an extreme - and justified - response.
The glassing of a planet in retaliation may have some utility (if you aggressive klingons blow up earth, we'll blow up Qo'nos) - however, the cold war showed the limits of the "Mutual Assured Distruction" - MAD - strategy, and what lies beyond them - complete destruction, completely undesirable.
Well, I don't recall the exact details, but....
A dangerous an extremely advanced alien got loose on a Federation colony. Left with no options, Commodore Diego Reyes (who is written as if played by Edward James Olmos, incidentally) orders a planetary bombardment to contain it. The Klingons join in despite their own settlement on the surface.
^ EJO as Reyes? I always pictured Tommy Lee Jones. Is Reyes really written 'for' EJO?
I'd rather think the Cold War showed the efficacy of MAD.
A takeover by puppet master-like parasites or a god-like alien who's using the people to build a doomsday weapon? Perhaps the people are in a suicide cult and attempting to make their star go supernova, endangering neighboring star systems. Maybe they have some omega particles and are about to render the alpha quadrant un-warpable. A horrifying disease threatening to spread off the planet and wipe out billions? Maybe two guys from alternate universes are wrestling around, blinking out our universe every time they touch, and they're hiding amongst a planetary population. Hell, maybe Gary Mitchell is back from Delta Vega and having some fun.
There are a thousand terrifying reasons for which General Order 24 might be necessary. Sure, its always best to find another way if you can, but if you can't and the chips are down, I think it'd be better to wipe out a planet then throw up your hands and allow for mass devesation on an even wider scale.
It's bound to be a very narrow range of scenarios, though. If it's something Starfleet can't contain after a week's wait, then it's rather unlikely that the single starship on location would even be capable of attacking the planet. Gary Mitchell would simply undo the ship. Omega particles, if already in a threatening state of readiness, would stop the starship as well. Diseases, dangerous ideas, desperately wanted criminals... If these are capable of breaking out and leaving the planet, then they are by definition also capable of defeating a starship, so no glassing will be possible.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Gary Mitchell couldn't defeat a 10-ton boulder.
While its applications may be limited, the potential importance of those applications especially when coupled with a limited time factor cannot be overstated. How many world/quadrant/galaxy/universe ending problems have cropped up in Trek? A lot. Anything that can do that kind of damage is worth sacrificing a planet, if and when doing so would end the threat. Its good to have the option open.
While its applications may be limited, the potential importance of those applications especially when coupled with a limited time factor cannot be overstated. How many world/quadrant/galaxy/universe ending problems have cropped up in Trek? A lot. Anything that can do that kind of damage is worth sacrificing a planet, if and when doing so would end the threat. Its good to have the option open.
The novel is set after the Dominion War, but dialogue within the novel says that the amendment was passed a very long time before 2379. As the amendment is actually called the Eminiar Amendment, the implication seems to be that the amendment was passed shortly after TOS's "A Taste of Armageddon" (2267).
Here's the relevant piece of dialogue, from page 66. Context: Klingon Chancellor Martok is talking over subspace with Federation President Min Zife and Presidential Chief of Staff Koll Azernal:
Yes -- in fact, they're by the same author. Reap the Whirlwind was set in 2265.
Actually,
The colony was an independent colony, and it had just been annihilated by a hostile, extremely powerful alien force known as the Shedai. The planet was ordered glassed by Commodore Reyes to prevent the Shedai individuals, who are capable of transmitting themselves across interstellar distances, from escaping the planet and targeting an inhabited world. The Klingons' own colony on the planet had been simultaneously annihilated.
No. Author David Mack has repeatedly said that he sees Reyes as being played by Tommy Lee Jones, not Edward James Olmos. EJO is a popular fantasy casting for Reyes amongst fans, though.
Every last one of those scenarios has alternate solutions that don't involve committing genocide.
Not in his weakened and still rather immature state, no. So there'd be no reason to destroy a planet to stop him. However, apparently, Gary Mitchell left to mature and increase his powers to fearsome levels would be unstoppable by a mere starship.
Yet this "apparently" is not at all apparent to our heroes until it's almost too late to stop Mitchell. So story logic would never allow for preemptively glassing a planet just to stop a single man on his way to divinity.
"Alternative Factor", I guess. Any others? And even that one couldn't have been solved by destroying an inhabited world.
Now, if the Doomsday Machine in its titular episode had been an inhabited world, then perhaps... And one could argue that the Borg Cubes are inhabited worlds, too. But there's still enough of a difference in scale that such incidents would not warrant a GO that allows the destruction of true planets.
In this case, though, a flag officer sent the order to the field commanders - apparently on basis of lengthy discussions he'd had with Starfleet Command on the very issue earlier on. What Kirk (apparently) did for selfish reasons does not really compare.
One might say that GO 24 is the order to destroy a world, when issued by authorized personnel. When an unauthorized person issues it, either he is to be jailed for the offense, or then one is to understand that this is going to be a bluff, and that following it through will end one's career and probably one's life (not to mention defeat the intentions of the unauthorized person who cunningly quoted the GO for bluffing purposes).
Timo Saloniemi
Depends on the circumstances, I think. If blasting a planet to nothingness is the only way to stop something even worse from happening, then quite frankly so be it. I suppose I can understand why many people seem squeamish about General Order 24, but as the old addage goes: "Its better to have a thing and not need it than to need a thing and not have it."
I for one am glad the Federation has it.
Perhaps if in his immature state a falling boulder could stop him while he was temporarily weakened and distracted, then perhaps a starship could stop him under similar circumstances in his mature state.
We don't know. That, I think, is the whole point of GO24 - that Starfleet doesn't know what kind of terrors captains are going to face out there, and if necessary it wants them to be able to deal with them effectively and free of potentially suicidal moral constraints regarding planetary annihilation.
So why would a highly trained starship captain on-site be less qualified than an armchair admiral or politician many light years away?
You're describing being glad that the Federation has provisions to allow for an act of genocide far beyond the scale of the atrocities of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. I really wonder about your sense of morality there.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
I'd rather think the Cold War showed the efficacy of MAD.
Humanity was very lucky to survive the cold war/total nuclear annihilation.
How many times were we on the brink of destruction? Each day could be the last one - the armament race and the ever increasing stockpile of nuclear weapons, the fear/hate between the superpowers.
And then there were the continuous conflicts/wars sparked by the superpowers.
Living with the sword of damocles above the head, knowing full well that, on a large enough time scale, nuclear conflict is inevitable.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
As other posters before me conclusively proved, each one of the situations you mentioned can be solved (some even more efficiently) by other means.
You have yet to describe a situation where it's clear that sterilizing a planet is the only means of stopping even greater destruction - I'm not talking about you arguing about interpretations of TOS episodes, but of a situation where glassing a planet is evidently the only solution/necessary.
The fact that you can't even come up with an arbitrary situation where such genocide is clearly necessary is quite telling.
If EJO is anything in Trek, it would be a Klingon. (He almost was, you know. )
)
If EJO is anything in Trek, it would be a Klingon. (He almost was, you know.
*shrugs* Personally, I tend to picture Reyes as being played by EJO, too. But that's just how I see the character, not how the authors picture him.
As I said, it isn't a preferable solution. However, survival is paramount. If it came down to the survival of the Federation or any of its member races or the survival of another race, which do you think starfleet would choose?
Self-preservation. What if it was a planet full of Borg? Would you lament their annihilation?
I'm not a science fiction writer, but at least I'm trying. You and you cohorts, on the other hand, are so dead-set against keeping GO24 on the books as even a last-ditch plan of action speaks volumes to your squeamishness about it. You don't want it to be true, and thus do your best to shoot it down. You can't imagine the peace-loving Federation doing something terrible in the name of survival and the greater good. Any space-faring civilization with an interesting preserving itself in the dangerous universe presented in Star Trek would do well to keep that option open. I wouldn't be surprised if they had even deadlier plans for making stars go nova, if they had to.
You haven't demonstrated that there is any scenario under which an act of planetary genocide is necessary to preserve the Federation.
That's the only scenario you've presented where such an act wouldn't constitute genocide, because a planet full of Borg has already suffered irrevocable genocide.
I for one will happily plead guilty to wanting the authority to commit planetary genocide revoked from Federation law under all circumstances, and don't consider my opposition to mass murder to be "squeamishness."
I'm not squeamish about genocide: I'm very firmly against it.
Go masturbate to 24. You're not interested in reality, you're interested in machismo doomsday self-righteous power plays.
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