Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonists?

[barnaclelapse]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

I just don't get the lesbian appeal from a man's perspective... What is so appealing about that? If she is lesbian, she's hardly interested in you, right?

Apparently, from a psychological perspective, what makes lipstick lesbians appealing to males is that it's a fantasy in which a woman has an unquenchable thirst for sex and sensuality, so unquenchable in fact, that she'd be willing to sleep with another woman. Note that in most fantasies involving lesbians, the women involved get seduced by other women, fall head over heels for their best friends, in other words they just can't resist their carnal desire.

In other words: what men like about the usual lesbian scenario is that it features women who have a typically male sexuality: they're always willing and they don't get too complicated about it. The lesbian fantasy is a subset of the "what if women liked sex in the same way as men" fantasy.

Plus it's pleasing to the eye.

Yeah...that...

 

[Lindley]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

I'd rather watch Swanson than Gellar any day.

People don't watch Buffy for Gellar. Oh, she has her moments to be sure, but most folks will tell you that it's the writing and the supporting cast which really elevates it.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

The writing and supporting cast are excellent in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but Gellar is a stellar lead. Her importance to the success of the show shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[Lindley]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Probably fair. I'd argue her importance to the show diminished gradually as it progressed, but she was a big factor in the early years.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^^
Yeah, I agree that the supporting cast became more and more popular as the years went on, but that Gellar was very important in anchoring the show in the early seasons.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Still doesn't make her show an action series, or her an action heroine.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^^
Buffy is most definitely an action heroine. The show includes a number of genres in its makeup - action, fantasy, and drama among them - but the same is true of films like Kill Bill, Underworld, and Resident Evil. Buffy Summers and Sydney Bristow are both action heroines. No doubt about it.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^ There is indeed doubt about it; regardless, they're certainly not action movie heroines, which was the thrust of my OP, per the thread title.

Having a sexy lesbian love interest would certainly be a... satisfying solution for certain audience members (myself included). I don't think the marketing problem would be appealing the film beyond the specialty lesbian market. The problem would be marketing the film in more conservative markets, and avoiding charges of indulging in puerile sexist titilation.

A gay Bond would certainly make far, far less than 007 outings are counted on to do. But do you really think the Tomb Raider movies or Chun-Li (why didn't I think of that one originally? I picked up a free poster of it from my video store as a future gag gift!) would make less money if they used the same actresses, and make the characters like girls? Would teenage boys, even in conservative markets, say "I was excited to see Tomb Raider... but I hear that Angelina Jolie gets hot and heavy with another bombshell, so I think I'll pass"? Myself, I just don't see it happening. It might get the pic banned in some foreign markets, but I could easily see revenue from other countries more than making up for such fringe cases.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^ There is indeed doubt about it.

Not to those who have actually watched the shows.

regardless, they're certainly not action movie heroines, which was the thrust of my OP, per the thread title.

True, but the shows do offer some avenues for movies with action heroine leads to explore in terms of how to frame romantic relationships, although the pacing of developing those relationships would obviously have to be adjusted for the needs of a feature film.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Jeez, how can there be 3 pages of this thread, it's slipped into Buffy, and no one has mentioned Xena?

Xena and Gabrielle were so obviously girlfriends, but it never had to be shown on screen, it was all nudge, wink, make fun of Joxer. And it worked. As much as Xena was low budget tv and had some hokey plots, it was a good fun series. Xena and Hercules wouldn't have worked nearly as well, for exactly the reasons the OP said. I would agree with the premise, at least based on Xena. It worked because you had a strong female lead saving the female sidekick every week.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^^
Actually Xena has already been mentioned quite a few times in the thread.

 

[23skidoo]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

People don't watch Buffy for Gellar. Oh, she has her moments to be sure, but most folks will tell you that it's the writing and the supporting cast which really elevates it.

Not a chance. It doesn't matter how good a script is, if the lead actor sucks - or doesn't work - the TV show dies. End of story. And the opposite is true - a good lead actor that appeals to audiences can make the worst-written show a success. Most people watched Buffy for SMG, period (at least as far as female lead is concerned, as people interested in male leads also watched it for Tony Head and for the guy who played Spike whose name I know but for some reason has slipped my mind ).

There are plenty of examples of both in the history of film and TV where a bad choice for lead actor has killed a show, and where a show has survived -- or at least gotten over rough patches - on the strength of its lead.

Alex

 

[Lindley]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Eh. Well, personally, Buffy has never been my favorite character on Buffy The Vampire Slayer. I was always more about Alyson Hannigan's Willow....

 

[Gaith]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Xena and Gabrielle were so obviously girlfriends, but it never had to be shown on screen, it was all nudge, wink, make fun of Joxer. And it worked. As much as Xena was low budget tv and had some hokey plots, it was a good fun series. Xena and Hercules wouldn't have worked nearly as well, for exactly the reasons the OP said. I would agree with the premise, at least based on Xena. It worked because you had a strong female lead saving the female sidekick every week.

Well, I'm convinced. Maybe I should check that show, which I'm far more inclined to believe is a bona fide action-series, out sometime.

 

[ALF]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Everything works better with lesbians. Incredible that hasn't been trademarked.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^ Shame the Xena/Gabrielle relationship was never made explicit, though...

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Xena and Gabrielle were so obviously girlfriends, but it never had to be shown on screen, it was all nudge, wink, make fun of Joxer. And it worked. As much as Xena was low budget tv and had some hokey plots, it was a good fun series. Xena and Hercules wouldn't have worked nearly as well, for exactly the reasons the OP said. I would agree with the premise, at least based on Xena. It worked because you had a strong female lead saving the female sidekick every week.

Well, I'm convinced. Maybe I should check that show, which I'm far more inclined to believe is a bona fide action-series, out sometime.

XENA was an action series by any definition. Heck, she usually killed off an army or two before the opening credits!

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Having a sexy lesbian love interest would certainly be a... satisfying solution for certain audience members (myself included). I don't think the marketing problem would be appealing the film beyond the specialty lesbian market. The problem would be marketing the film in more conservative markets, and avoiding charges of indulging in puerile sexist titilation.

A gay Bond would certainly make far, far less than 007 outings are counted on to do. But do you really think the Tomb Raider movies or Chun-Li (why didn't I think of that one originally? I picked up a free poster of it from my video store as a future gag gift!) would make less money if they used the same actresses, and make the characters like girls? Would teenage boys, even in conservative markets, say "I was excited to see Tomb Raider... but I hear that Angelina Jolie gets hot and heavy with another bombshell, so I think I'll pass"? Myself, I just don't see it happening. It might get the pic banned in some foreign markets, but I could easily see revenue from other countries more than making up for such fringe cases.

You may have a point there. But then, to risk losing any foreign revenue might be a deal breaker for these films. Cheap action movies seem to mainly thrive on foreign DVD sales.

^^ Shame the Xena/Gabrielle relationship was never made explicit, though...

Same with the tease lesbian dance in Street Fighter: The Legend of Chun-Li.

(And no, Underworld is not a good, emotionally involving movie.)

Obviously, it didn't work for you. But I can testify that there are a LOT of UNDERWORLD fans out there who are very invested in the relationships. I get more fan mail for the UNDERWORLD books than for anything else I write. And, trust me, the UW fans really care about those characters.

Testify, Mr. Cox, testify!

Although, I would say that, for the Underworld movies, the mythology, style, & action scenes are a greater strong suit than the character relationships. It also helps to populate the movies with as many cool British character actors as possible. Some of that is just due to the action movie format. The characters have very interesting internal emotional lives that come through in the books but sometimes don't read on screen.

 

[MarianLH]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

The real story here is: why shoehorn a romance in a movie where it doesn't belong? Maybe it should be a minor theme. Maybe it shouldn't exist. Let the movie be what it's trying to be. Don't just throw lesbians at a movie for no reason at all!

QFE.

I like action movies with female leads. Enough to overlook the faults of weaker ones like The Long Kiss Goodnight (beggers can't be choosers). I wish there were more of them, but I understand it's something of a problem for Hollywood--guys mostly prefer a male lead, and most women aren't interested in action movies regardless of the lead's gender.

Hey, that makes me wonder...where are all the rom-coms with lesbians?

It's in the Water
Imagine Me & You
Saving Face
D.E.B.S.
The Sex Monster
Chutney Popcorn

The last one isn't a rom com, it's just really funny.


Marian

 

[Cicero]

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

And yeah Steve Trevor is a prime example. He's capable but not nearly as capable as WW. OR the only time he has the upper hand is when she's somehow incapacitated or something. Which is pretty weak. So what if WW was just another Army/Air Force chick and Steve used his skills to the best of his ability. You either have the man as a weak, fuckin' idiot or as a complete jerk wad that's gotta save the pretty fighter babe and then screw her in the end.

I grew up reading the 40s Wonder Woman, and I've never really understood why Steve Trevor is so disliked. Is it the 70s TV show? Written well, Major Trevor is essentially James Bond in an army uniform, but less promiscuous.

He's a crack pilot and agent for Army Intelligence. He regularly puts his life on the line in situations that approach certain death, pursuing the Axis with single-minded focus - every time, he will win or die trying.

He can easily be both very cool and much less powerful than Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman's dual identity as Diana Prince helps, because it allows them to interact in situations in which he leads (when they're both in the Army), and in which she does (when she's Wonder Woman). In the Army, she has his back, and in star-spangled shorts, he has hers. (Indeed, he saves her in the 40s stories almost as much as she saves him, usually because one or the other of them got in over their head.)

I think the Justice League TV show nailed what makes Steve Trevor cool, and did so without diminishing Wonder Woman. (Reading the 40s stories, it was always clear that Wonder Woman was the hero, but Steve Trevor was just as cool. It was easy to see why they were interested in each other.)

That reminds me of someone's description of Transformers 2: an action movie with all of the unnecessary dialogue removed.