'CORRECT' OUTCOME OF KOBAYASHI MARU?

[Shawnster]

The only neutral zone on earth I can remember was one on the boarder between Iraq and Saudi, the interesting thing was it wasn't along the entire boarder, just a sixty odd mile section out in the middle of the desert. Maybe the Klingon NZ isn't everywhere the two spaces touchs, just one spot.

That was the oval shape on the main viewer, the small KNZ.

There is also the DMZ between North and South Korea

In military terms, a demilitarized zone (DMZ) is an area, usually the frontier or boundary between two or more military powers (or alliances), where military activity is not permitted, usually by peace treaty, armistice, or other bilateral or multilateral agreement. Often the demilitarized zone lies upon a line of control and forms a de-facto international border.
Several demilitarized zones have also unintentionally become wildlife preserves, as they cause the land which they sit on to be too dangerous for construction and less exposed to human disturbance or hunting. See Korean Demilitarized Zone.

The Korean Demilitarized Zone is a strip of land running across the Korean Peninsula that serves as a buffer zone between North and South Korea. The DMZ cuts the Korean Peninsula roughly in half, crossing the 38th parallel on an angle, with the west end of the DMZ lying south of the parallel and the east end lying north of it. It is 155 miles (248 km) long and approximately 2.5 miles (4 km) wide, and is the most heavily militarized border in the world.

I read and reread the TWOK novelization countless times. If I remember correctly in the novel there are several Klingon ships, not just three. It's as if they keep coming and coming, overwhelming the Enterprise.

 

[Myasishchev]

Sci, just wanted to say you distinguish the KM scenario from Korean Air 007 well, with the fact that the KNZ (or RNZ if that's the case) being--on its face anyway--neutral territory.

I was thinking of the KM having drifted over to the Klingon side...

There should be some provision in the treaty for this situation--in which case it could be that the Fed starship is expected, as you say, to render assistance. (Although this is still probably within the captain's discretion, even if he or she probably needs a good reason not to do it.)

 

[137th Gebirg]

in my fan-fic, my lead beats the test by moving in and putting the transport inside his ship's shield bubble so he can keep beaming passengers aboard after the Cardassians show up, then tractors the transport, moves relatively upwards, out of the line of fire of the four Galors, (causing one to be fratricided.) then flees in a relative horizontal direction, ditching the transport as he does once all the survivors are aboard and happily one of the Galors slams straight into it and he then executes a warp jump.

key point is, he remembers space is 3D and evades the Cardies weapons fire...

This is how I would do the KM:
1) Wait for the Klingons to get a firing solution.
2) As they were launching torpedoes, do a flash-warp "Picard Maneuver" to the immediate center of the Klingon formation. Torpedoes are already out and were fixed on your initial position. It will take time for them to reload.
3) Quickly drop shields and Beam 3 antimatter containment bottles simultaneously in the path of each of the enemy ships (this would involve already having them disconnected prior to engagement). If you're flying a Connie or Miranda, you should have plenty left over. Immediately raise shields after completion of beaming. You might take some flak from close-range point-defense disruptors for a few seconds, but not a big deal.
4) Instantly do another flash-warp to the coordinates of the KM.
5a) If it was a trap and the KM doesn't exist -or- was destroyed by the Klingons, make a hasty exit back across the neutral zone.
5b) If it's still there, extend the shields around it, protecting it from the 3 antimatter blasts from step 3. This also has the added benefit of being able to beam survivors out without dropping shields.
6) If the Klingons actually survived the explosions, they should be disabled/blinded enough to either head home unchallenged or mop up on the way back.

It admittedly involves some "dirty tricks" and not very "Starfleet", but I suspect any cadet who ran a scenario like this might likely get the moniker "Captain Blood" from his/her fellow peers.

From what is implied in TWoK, the enemy ships do get lucky shots in almost every time. The computer cheats. With their 1st shot, the Klingons disable the main energizer forcing the use of emergency power. The 2nd shot brought down the shields. Weapons were down after the 3rd shot and with the 4th they were "dead in space."

No matter what the computer wins...unless you reprogram it.

Hmmm..I hadn't thought of that - and you're right, if the computer is programmed to cheat in the first place, it almost completely justifies Kirk's reprogramming - almost, in effect, making it possibly more "realistic" (in-universe) allowing him to save the ship based on real skills.

If Spock did invent the KM system (if we take into account the new movie), I would be highly disappointed that he resorted to a cheat algorithm to be the "ultimate killer scenario", unless that was #1 on the req list he got from SFC. I somehow think he would have tried to make the AI "really good" first before doing that kind of nonsense.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Honestly, short of going about it the way Kirk did I'm pretty sure the smartest course of action is to just get the hell out of there, although I'm the kind of idiot that would probably try anyway.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I would make the attempt at the rescue, with caveats.



(A) my entry into the neutral zone would be at point parallel to the Federation border so both the transit and any emergeny escape would be of the shortest path possible.

(B) I would probe the tolerance of the Klingons by seeing what depth you could cross the border before they went crazy. Keeping the cameras rolling and the hailing frequencies open could still lead to a big proganda victory against the Empire even if the Kobayashi Maru perished.

 

[iluthradanar]

Would any cadet be drummed out for at least attempting a rescue, or some other option? I didn't think it a pass or fail test, but rather they just wanted to see what you did or how you reacted. Jim was totally into solving the puzzle rather than just going through the motions and being judged on his reactions, as most if not all other cadets did. He was a pip, wasn't he?

 

[Myasishchev]

From a dramatic point of view, I was a bit disappointed with that--I always expected Kirk's cheating to involve breaking the game, not modding it. The only way any command ability is established by doing the latter is if one can arbitrarily rewrite the rules of the real universe. Which means one would be, in fact, God.

And what does God need with a starship?

I think breaking the game would also have pissed Spock off much more. For example, a response to a command to invoke General Order 24 (that is, the captain-sanctioned genocide from "Taste of Armageddon" and "Whom Gods Destroy"--I may have to rethink my previous assertions about the Federation being a society of law) on Kronos might not have actually been programmed in, because it was never considered as a course of action. Or perhaps attempting to find and take hostage a Klingon merchantman--alternatives available in the real world but which the simulated Klingons cannot respond to.

 

[Sci]

From a dramatic point of view, I was a bit disappointed with that--I always expected Kirk's cheating to involve breaking the game, not modding it.

I'm not sure why you would think that; Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan pretty clearly stated that Kirk had re-programmed the simulation to allow him to win, not broken it.

 

[Myasishchev]

I thought it just said he cheated. Oh well, either way. Maybe it was just the apple-tossing execution.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

It depends on the terms of the treaty. For one thing, the simulation as described involves entry into the Neutral Zone and encountering KLINGON warships; as far as I know, Federation and Klingon space was never divided by a neutral zone, so you have to wonder if the treaty being violated is the Organian Treaty or the Romulan Treaty with Klingon involvement as a Romulan ally. OTOH, it's entirely possible that the Klingons are in the neutral zone conducting a war with the Romulans and the decision to enter the zone is at risk of being caught in the crossfire (since Klingons tend to shoot first and ask questions later).

I believe the Klingon Neutral Zone was mentioned in Star Trek VI as well. I would have liked to believe it was a post-Organian arrangement, but Star Trek XI casts doubt on this.

BTW, I'd argue that the results are three:

One, don't go into TNZ
Two, go in, but get forced out when Klingons appear
Three, go in, make a rescue attempt, and get destroyed.

Either way, the judgment would be on how well you handle yourself under pressure and if you have good command poise. I'd actually argue that you wouldn't automatically fail for not going in, since the first instinct in a computer simulation would be to take risks that you wouldn't if your real life were on the line (but, at the same time, there wouldn't be much to judge, so you probably wouldn't get top marks).

War could be a consideration, but I don't think the scenario gets to that point (your ship would get destroyed before the Klingons do).

 

[Sci]

I thought it just said he cheated. Oh well, either way. Maybe it was just the apple-tossing execution.

Honestly, I didn't mind the fact that Kirk was so blatant about the fact that he had cheated, because that was more honest than a Kirk who does the test earnestly and tries to act like he didn't cheat.

What I didn't care for was the fact that at the hearing afterwards, he acted offended that he was being questioned. I felt that Kirk should have been upfront and unoffended; he should have been very Joe Friday, matter-of-fact about it and about why he did it.

 

[SilentP]

What I didn't care for was the fact that at the hearing afterwards, he acted offended that he was being questioned. I felt that Kirk should have been upfront and unoffended; he should have been very Joe Friday, matter-of-fact about it and about why he did it.

I didn't get the offended vibe from him, though initially he did seem a bit confused as to what was going on, then again, the scene began as if the cadets didn't know what was going to happen. I think once the questioning started, he was getting into the swing of the arguments he had in his head about why he did it.

 

[CoveTom]

Honestly, I didn't mind the fact that Kirk was so blatant about the fact that he had cheated, because that was more honest than a Kirk who does the test earnestly and tries to act like he didn't cheat.

I didn't mind that either, since he would be unlikely to receive a commendation for original thinking if he tried to perpetrate a fraud on his superiors rather than just acknowledging he cheated.

What I disliked, though, was the manner in which he cheated. I never envisioned Kirk's reprogramming to be such a simple "we show up, now we win" kinda thing that he acts so immature and egotistical about. Rather, I always assumed he would simply change the conditions of the battle significantly enough so that he could play out the simulation but successfully destroy or disable the Klingon ships, in a more serious and realistic manner, and rescue the Kobayshi Maru crew and passengers.

But, then again, perhaps the original Kirk did it the way I envisioned, and the alternate universe Kirk did it differently because he was now a different person with a much more cocky, arrogant attitude during his academy days.

 

[Kegg]

Honestly, I didn't mind the fact that Kirk was so blatant about the fact that he had cheated, because that was more honest than a Kirk who does the test earnestly and tries to act like he didn't cheat.

I didn't mind that either, since he would be unlikely to receive a commendation for original thinking if he tried to perpetrate a fraud on his superiors rather than just acknowledging he cheated.

What I disliked, though, was the manner in which he cheated. I never envisioned Kirk's reprogramming to be such a simple "we show up, now we win" kinda thing that he acts so immature and egotistical about. Rather, I always assumed he would simply change the conditions of the battle significantly enough so that he could play out the simulation but successfully destroy or disable the Klingon ships, in a more serious and realistic manner, and rescue the Kobayshi Maru crew and passengers.

But, then again, perhaps the original Kirk did it the way I envisioned, and the alternate universe Kirk did it differently because he was now a different person with a much more cocky, arrogant attitude during his academy days.

I really couldn't see the original Kirk going for such a dry approach to cheating. This is Kirk we're talking about, he does things with a lot of flair and bombast. I always figured he would have been painfully obvious about bucking the test because, as he observed with a grin in The Wrath of Khan, he doesn't like no-win scenarios. The new movie portayed the act as a college kid pulling a prank because, hey, that's what it was.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ If you think about it, he had that same cocky attitude when he cheated Khan. Sitting there snacking on an apple bragging about how he cheated in the first place, then the famous apple bite, "I dun like to loose <Crunch>." Tempered with age, sure. But you get the sense that Kirk was something of a cocky little upstart in his academy days, not unlike the way Picard once described himself before being stabbed in the chest by some surly Nausicans.

 

[Lindley]

I would warp to the KM, then when the Klingons appeared, I'd stealth-launch my most powerful small craft (shuttle if necessary, runabout or captain's yacht if available), and lead the Klingons away at warp while that ship put a tractor on the KM and towed it out of the Zone.

 

[Sci]

^ If you think about it, he had that same cocky attitude when he cheated Khan. Sitting there snacking on an apple bragging about how he cheated in the first place, then the famous apple bite, "I dun like to loose <Crunch>." Tempered with age, sure. But you get the sense that Kirk was something of a cocky little upstart in his academy days, not unlike the way Picard once described himself before being stabbed in the chest by some surly Nausicans.

Actually, the sense I always got was that Kirk was a very uptight, book-smart, rule-abiding cadet who gradually grew into his "rogue" role. Sort of the opposite of Picard's journey.

But I can certainly accept that the James T. Kirk of the other universe would have gone on a different emotional journey as a result of growing up a troubled youth.

 

[CoveTom]

I really couldn't see the original Kirk going for such a dry approach to cheating. This is Kirk we're talking about, he does things with a lot of flair and bombast. I always figured he would have been painfully obvious about bucking the test because, as he observed with a grin in The Wrath of Khan, he doesn't like no-win scenarios. The new movie portayed the act as a college kid pulling a prank because, hey, that's what it was.

The Kirk of his academy years was not someone who pulled college pranks and did things with that level of "flair and bombast." That's the way the academy Kirk of the alternate universe does things, but the original Kirk was not that cocky swaggering character until later in his life. He was a "stack of books with legs," as Gary Mitchell put it, in his younger years.

 

[kes7]

It was the third time he'd taken the test, though, at least in the movie universe (I can't remember if he took it more than once in the prime universe).

Surely they had enough data on him from the first two times, when he played it straight and failed like he was "supposed to," to make a judgment call about his command skills. The third time wasn't about winning, it was about making a point.

 

[Sci]

I really couldn't see the original Kirk going for such a dry approach to cheating. This is Kirk we're talking about, he does things with a lot of flair and bombast. I always figured he would have been painfully obvious about bucking the test because, as he observed with a grin in The Wrath of Khan, he doesn't like no-win scenarios. The new movie portayed the act as a college kid pulling a prank because, hey, that's what it was.

The Kirk of his academy years was not someone who pulled college pranks and did things with that level of "flair and bombast." That's the way the academy Kirk of the alternate universe does things, but the original Kirk was not that cocky swaggering character until later in his life. He was a "stack of books with legs," as Gary Mitchell put it, in his younger years.

To be fair, even the young Kirk of the Prime Universe must have had a bit of a swagger to him, to be willing to cheat at the Kobayashi Maru Scenario.