Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

[Mach5]

They 'extrapolated' certain portions of the recreation. (Yes, I am plugging my ears and shouting "naanaanaaa")

Assuming that TATV was an actual episode, then logic would dictate that more than 90% of the holdeck simulation had been an "extrapolation." Its either that, or the on board cameras recorded every private conversation that ever happened on the NX-01.

 

[Yug]

Well, not to complicate things, but, the theory is this (I think): If you go back in time and change something it will create an "alternate timeline" branching off from the original timeline (string theory). A "parallel universe" is a reality that has always existed side by side with our current universe (multiverse theory) and (hypothetically) could have it's own branches of alternate realities whitin itself. So, anyway, I ain't really smart enough to understand the mechanics of it all (may not have spelled everything right either... be kind) but that's the breakdown as I see it.

The Abramverse is a alternate reality (maybe)... the Mirror universe is a parallel universe (absolutley)

 

[Pauln6]

Well, not to complicate things, but, the theory is this (I think): If you go back in time and change something it will create an "alternate timeline" branching off from the original timeline (string theory). A "parallel universe" is a reality that has always existed side by side with our current universe (multiverse theory) and (hypothetically) could have it's own branches of alternate realities whitin itself. So, anyway, I ain't really smart enough to understand the mechanics of it all (may not have spelled everything right either... be kind) but that's the breakdown as I see it.

The Abramverse is a alternate reality (maybe)... the Mirror universe is a parallel universe (absolutley)

Thanks for clearing that up! Do we have any mathmaticians or quantum physicists in to give us the correct formulas?

 

[JarodRussell]

Evidence for that the Xindi attack caused an alternate timeline is that the model of the NX-01 never appeared in any Star Trek before (where is it in the Enterprise-D or Enterprise-E First Contact briefing room?), and that Daniels more than once said that those changes in the timeline were never supposed to happen.

And the final episode of ENT takes place in a parallel universe where everyone got fat and old.

 

[Cyke101]

Evidence for that the Xindi attack caused an alternate timeline is that the model of the NX-01 never appeared in any Star Trek before (where is it in the Enterprise-D or Enterprise-E First Contact briefing room?), and that Daniels more than once said that those changes in the timeline were never supposed to happen.

After the First Contact mission, when the E-E travels back to the present, I can just imagine the statue of the NX-01 materializing in the conference room, Back to the Future style...

...to which Picard sees and just snaps his head and barks out, "Shit."

 

[Mach5]

...to which Picard sees and just snaps his head and barks out, "Shit."

I believe you meant "merde"

 

[Yug]

Well, not to complicate things, but, the theory is this (I think): If you go back in time and change something it will create an "alternate timeline" branching off from the original timeline (string theory). A "parallel universe" is a reality that has always existed side by side with our current universe (multiverse theory) and (hypothetically) could have it's own branches of alternate realities whitin itself. So, anyway, I ain't really smart enough to understand the mechanics of it all (may not have spelled everything right either... be kind) but that's the breakdown as I see it.

The Abramverse is a alternate reality (maybe)... the Mirror universe is a parallel universe (absolutley)

Thanks for clearing that up! Do we have any mathmaticians or quantum physicists in to give us the correct formulas?

I think it does clear it up somewhat (sans formulas), at least in the context of the episodic/serial sci-fi genre... Doctor Who, Terminator, Back to the Future, Fringe, Lost, Quantum Leap, Star Trek and so forth.

And the final episode of ENT takes place in a parallel universe where everyone got fat and old.

That's the universe I'm from.

 

[The Wormhole]

Evidence for that the Xindi attack caused an alternate timeline is that the model of the NX-01 never appeared in any Star Trek before (where is it in the Enterprise-D or Enterprise-E First Contact briefing room?), and that Daniels more than once said that those changes in the timeline were never supposed to happen.

The Enterprise D briefing room is an oddity, given that it included the space shuttle Enterprise and the aircraft carrier, though it was also missing the ring ship we saw a picture of in TMP. However, the Enterprise E's only had Federation starships named Enterprise. Since the NX-01 was decommisioned the day before the Federation was founded, it was never a Federation starship.

 

[JarodRussell]

You cite TMP trying to negate TNG, yet also in TMP there was no NX-01. Enterprise is the oddity here.

 

[StarryEyed]

The writers slipped a line into Shockwave that can be used to justify the events of any time-travel scenario in Star Trek.

Daniels (to Archer): "You think of time-travel like some Jules Verne novel. It's much more complicated than that. You couldn't possibly understand."

The last sentence is the most important one because it implies that time-travel cannot be understood within the framework of 22nd century physics. By extension, we in the 21st century cannot understand it. Therefor, nothing the writers come up with regarding time-travel can be shot down on a logical or scientific basis. It is canon that we can't understand it. Anything goes.

 

[JarodRussell]

The writers slipped a line into Shockwave that can be used to justify the events of any time-travel scenario in Star Trek.

Daniels (to Archer): "You think of time-travel like some Jules Verne novel. It's much more complicated than that. You couldn't possibly understand."

The last sentence is the most important one because it implies that time-travel cannot be understood within the framework of 22nd century physics. By extension, we in the 21st century cannot understand it. Therefor, nothing the writers come up with regarding time-travel can be shot down on a logical or scientific basis. It is canon that we can't understand it. Anything goes.

Hm... so the guys who don't believe what Daniels is saying can't believe that either.

 

[StarryEyed]

Right. We can have all have what ever timeline we want.

 

[Sci]

The writers slipped a line into Shockwave that can be used to justify the events of any time-travel scenario in Star Trek.

Daniels (to Archer): "You think of time-travel like some Jules Verne novel. It's much more complicated than that. You couldn't possibly understand."

The last sentence is the most important one because it implies that time-travel cannot be understood within the framework of 22nd century physics. By extension, we in the 21st century cannot understand it. Therefor, nothing the writers come up with regarding time-travel can be shot down on a logical or scientific basis. It is canon that we can't understand it. Anything goes.

Doctor Who was much more economical (and entertaining) with its version of that explanation:

"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of... wibbly-wobbley, timey-wimey... stuff.... That sentence got away from me."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You cite TMP trying to negate TNG, yet also in TMP there was no NX-01.

Yeah, well, TMP didn't have the second aircraft carrier Enterprise either! And obviously that ship exists IRL - since not only do WE know it exists, they bloody well had a SCENE aboard it in ST IV! (The TMP scene only had the FIRST aircraft carrier, the one that served in WW II.) So that's hardly definitive. See below.

Evidence for that the Xindi attack caused an alternate timeline is that the model of the NX-01 never appeared in any Star Trek before (where is it in the Enterprise-D or Enterprise-E First Contact briefing room?)

How were those scenes supposed to have a NX-01 model in them? The show Enterprise had not yet been thought of by the writers. It's like when people bitch about how Scotty (in "Relics") said something about Kirk coming to rescue him while Scotty witnessed Kirk's death in Generations. There is no nitpick, because GENERATIONS HAD NOT BEEN WRITTEN WHEN THAT EPISODE TOOK PLACE. So you can't blame the writers of "Relics" for not being prescient about a film that had yet to be written, and neither can you blame the writers of ST:TNG and its films for not having a model of a ship from a series that also had not yet been written.

Besides, it's not like those briefing room scenes had a model of every ship that was ever named Enterprise, they had to pick and choose, so to speak.

and that Daniels more than once said that those changes in the timeline were never supposed to happen.

Why should we believe anything Daniels says? Who's to say his timeline is the right one?

 

[Shawnster]

How were those scenes supposed to have a NX-01 model in them? The show Enterprise had not yet been thought of by the writers. It's like when people bitch about how Scotty (in "Relics") said something about Kirk coming to rescue him while Scotty witnessed Kirk's death in Generations. There is no nitpick, because GENERATIONS HAD NOT BEEN WRITTEN WHEN THAT EPISODE TOOK PLACE. So you can't blame the writers of "Relics" for not being prescient about a film that had yet to be written, and neither can you blame the writers of ST:TNG and its films for not having a model of a ship from a series that also had not yet been written.

And that was one of the big reasons why I hated the Enterprise prequel idea. Oh, sure, I can nit pick Scotty's line in Relics. I can also rationalize it. Easy to do since it's only one little line.

Enterprise, on the other hand, was a FOUR YEAR LONG SERIES! Kinda hard to ignore that.

I knew from the moment it was announced there would be trouble. Star Trek wasn't like Star Wars. As much as I have problems with EP 1-3 I do know that Lucas had a lot of stuff in mind about that time period BEFORE making EP 4-6. Plus, he had 20 years to think about things.

Star Trek, on the other hand, was different. I knew they would stumble through it without much thought. I knew it'd be too difficult to make a prequel series and not contradict TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. I knew this because the subsequent series after TNG kept messing with continuity somewhere along the way. The very existance of the NX-01 was, for me, enough of a contradiction.

But what do you do? I watched every episode of ENT. It was what it was.

 

[Shawnster]

and that Daniels more than once said that those changes in the timeline were never supposed to happen.

Why should we believe anything Daniels says? Who's to say his timeline is the right one?[/QUOTE]

Apparently somebody has the right to say which timeline is the right one. There are, after all, somebody sent Braxton and those other temporal police types on missions to restore the timeline.

 

[Nerys Myk]

How were those scenes supposed to have a NX-01 model in them? The show Enterprise had not yet been thought of by the writers. It's like when people bitch about how Scotty (in "Relics") said something about Kirk coming to rescue him while Scotty witnessed Kirk's death in Generations. There is no nitpick, because GENERATIONS HAD NOT BEEN WRITTEN WHEN THAT EPISODE TOOK PLACE. So you can't blame the writers of "Relics" for not being prescient about a film that had yet to be written, and neither can you blame the writers of ST:TNG and its films for not having a model of a ship from a series that also had not yet been written.

And that was one of the big reasons why I hated the Enterprise prequel idea. Oh, sure, I can nit pick Scotty's line in Relics. I can also rationalize it. Easy to do since it's only one little line.

Enterprise, on the other hand, was a FOUR YEAR LONG SERIES! Kinda hard to ignore that.

I knew from the moment it was announced there would be trouble. Star Trek wasn't like Star Wars. As much as I have problems with EP 1-3 I do know that Lucas had a lot of stuff in mind about that time period BEFORE making EP 4-6. Plus, he had 20 years to think about things.

Star Trek, on the other hand, was different. I knew they would stumble through it without much thought. I knew it'd be too difficult to make a prequel series and not contradict TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. I knew this because the subsequent series after TNG kept messing with continuity somewhere along the way. The very existance of the NX-01 was, for me, enough of a contradiction.

But what do you do? I watched every episode of ENT. It was what it was.

Hell, TOS contradicted TOS. I try not to worry about it too much.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Apparently somebody has the right to say which timeline is the right one. There are, after all, somebody sent Braxton and those other temporal police types on missions to restore the timeline.

At least we *know* that the temporal police were on the level. We saw them at work. We knew they were Starfleet through and through.

Daniels, though? We have no idea who he was working for. We don't know that he was a good guy, not by a long shot. I find it very likely that the timeline HE considered to be the right one was not the one that was supposed to happen.

 

[Mach5]

Daniels (to Archer): "You think of time-travel like some Jules Verne novel. It's much more complicated than that. You couldn't possibly understand."

The last sentence is the most important one because it implies that time-travel cannot be understood within the framework of 22nd century physics. By extension, we in the 21st century cannot understand it. Therefor, nothing the writers come up with regarding time-travel can be shot down on a logical or scientific basis. It is canon that we can't understand it. Anything goes.

I'm bookmarking this! I applaud you, sir!

 

[Pauln6]

A wizard did it.

Or better yet, the same agency that sends out Sapphire & Steel!