When the Klingons attack in Generations.

[Myasishchev]

For my money, the Enterprise should have been vaporized and everyone aboard killed with the first pho-torp that got through their shields.

Heck, I'm for retconning it that the loser Duras' couldn't even afford antimatter weaponry at this point, and had hastily modified some gun-type fission bombs they'd picked up from the Gangster Planet or something. <_<

The Hood fired back after the Bismarck put a shell into one of the magazines, too, and it was exactly as effective as the phaser shot from the E-D; and at least Riker actually ordered it, instead of it (perhaps) resulting from a fire in A turret. It's just a shame that Ralph Kerr and Lancelot Holland didn't realize (before they blew up) the Bismarck's weakness to an ionic pulse.

I didn't really have much of a problem with the fight itself other than that--the E-D was virtually crippled early on, and a shieldless ship ought not to be able to defend itself against a shielded one, especially when the shielded one gets the first shots in. However, I will agree with DonIago that using stock footage in a freakin' theatrical release was despicable. Show some pride. That's some Godzilla vs. Megalon shit.

 

[DonIago]

Well, as far as the use of stock footage -in general- goes, I can be more forgiving. See TWoK.

Using it for a climactic explosion sequence though, and -so- blatantly...not so much.

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, as far as the use of stock footage -in general- goes, I can be more forgiving. See TWoK.

Using it for a climactic explosion sequence though, and -so- blatantly...not so much.

Hm, I didn't remember stock footage from TWoK... is it footage from TMP, where they go to warp? I didn't even notice. Probably, as you say, it wasn't the climactic part. I'd have noticed if they'd used, say, the V'Ger sublimation for the Genesis explosion, though--which is essentially what Generations did. I still say it's kind of dirty pool to do it in a film, regardless of the importance of the scene.

That does remind me, that's my biggest knock on TSFS, a movie I otherwise (and sometimes it seems solely ) adore... that awful security camera footage. Would it have killed you to refilm a three minute sequence, Nimoy? Yes, it's beautiful in TWoK, and you did a great job, but 'cmon. Did Chekov (I guess) really edit together the engineering camera footage so it just happened to coincide with the editing from the previous film? Does this clip need any set-up?

 

[DonIago]

In TWoK, the Kobayashi Maru Klingon attack & the drydock scenes are stock footage from TMP. But I don't consider either of those to be on the same scale, and the Klingon attack re-use actually short of makes sense given that you're watching simulated footage to begin with.

 

[Krieg1981]

It was a fucking stupid scene that should have never been in there in the first place. The E-D has gone up against a Borg Cube without getting destoryed but they can't handle a little BOP? WTF indeed.

This.

 

[Tom Riley]

Well, as far as the use of stock footage -in general- goes, I can be more forgiving. See TWoK.

Using it for a climactic explosion sequence though, and -so- blatantly...not so much.

Let's not forget the other stock footage use in Generations... The Enterprise B warping to the Nexus is stock footage of Excelsior warping to Khitomer from The Undiscovered Country.

 

[Timo]

I think the Husnock example could be forgiven

Why? It represents the statistically overwhelmingly most common type of Galaxy attack (or defense) against a powerful opponent.

But in BoBW, which engagement had the "everything" count as a single phaser blast?

Ah, my mistake (and a biggie). I was thinking of Phil Farrand's classic nitpicks - but he was referring to the use of a single beam in other Borg episodes, not within the "BoBW" duology.

The only time I recall that happening was when Shelby ordered a very specific scalpel-like attack, rather than the sledgehammer of a weapons-spread.

To be sure, when the E-D fires the main dorsal beam, plus torpedoes and (nonexistent) pylon leading edge beams, only the first one has any hope of meeting the tactical goal specified by Picard - namely, hitting the tractor beam emitter. And just like in "Q Who?", the beam misses at first, at a range of a few kilometers, supposedly deflected by the Borg tractor beam. But the pylon phasers and the torpedoes must miss altogether! That is, unless the torps and the beams curve up sharply after leaving the ship... Thus, it almost seems as if these additional beams were only fired as a tactical distraction.

But that's exactly how this battle ended

Yet when the single aft torpedo was fired, the range was much greater than when the Durases fired their first nose-to-nose torps. Judging by visuals, the range at the conclusion of the ST:GEN battle was comparable to the ranges where torps were used in the Borg episodes, and perhaps twice or thrice the range across which the Husnock were fought. The only torpedoes ever fired as up close as the initial Duras ones have always been Klingon BoP torpedoes, which supposedly are quite weak - or then torps from the runabouts, which are weaker still.

Except, of course, for

the Lantree

but there we could argue that it was not a combat situation, and Picard's crew could carefully calculate the yield needed for safely destroying the shieldless derelict. Really, for all we know, the torpedo there was mainly symbolic, and what our heroes did was set off the scuttling charges of the dead ship by remote, simultaneously with the ceremonial hit.

such as Picard and Riker ordering torpedoes at near point blank range at a Cube, knowing that it would both be ineffective AND suicidal

But the Borg would be a whole 'nother ball game, as they threatened the very survival of world-as-our-heroes-know-it. And even there, the distances always were visually recognizable as several Cube-widths, meaning a dozen kilometers or so. No ship has fought with torps against an opponent sitting less than a Galaxy-length away - and the Klingons kept on chasing the E-D at very close ranges, never quite amounting to those several Cube-widths.

Lastly, with the BoP, I doubt we would be having this much of a discussion had the producers simply used a different design of ship.

I don't know about that. The BoP has always been considered a worthy opponent to big capital ships - not because it would be powerful, but because it is sneaky and capable of underhanded, under-the-belt attacks. On that attack mode, it has successfully defeated a Constitution-refit in ST3 and ST5 and almost in ST6; was supposed to spit death at a Galaxy in "A Matter of Honor"; did defeat a Galaxy in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Rascals" (although in those two cases it was supposedly a larger ship of the same shape, and flying in pairs); and was still very much a frontline combat vessel in the Dominion War.

It should be consistent that this "Evil Bouche/Nazi submarine" remain a threat our clean-hearted heroes justly fear... Perhaps even beyond the level that is factually justified.

Did Chekov (I guess) really edit together the engineering camera footage so it just happened to coincide with the editing from the previous film?

I have nothing against dramatic editing of security camera footage. Surely future technology would readily do that, since it's what the users desire. We saw some of that in "Court Martial" already, mind you.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyke101]

I think the Husnock example could be forgiven

Why? It represents the statistically overwhelmingly most common type of Galaxy attack (or defense) against a powerful opponent.

Simply because it was the extension of a god; that feat can't be a measure of the E-D's effectiveness. Sort of like how, if the E-D blows up a Warbird in Nagilum, was it really a Warbird? It wouldn't count as any sort of attack would be manipulated by a being on the verge of being magical.

To be sure, when the E-D fires the main dorsal beam, plus torpedoes and (nonexistent) pylon leading edge beams, only the first one has any hope of meeting the tactical goal specified by Picard - namely, hitting the tractor beam emitter. And just like in "Q Who?", the beam misses at first, at a range of a few kilometers, supposedly deflected by the Borg tractor beam. But the pylon phasers and the torpedoes must miss altogether! That is, unless the torps and the beams curve up sharply after leaving the ship... Thus, it almost seems as if these additional beams were only fired as a tactical distraction.

I think this point is just a misunderstanding between us: I see where you're getting at, and I don't think the pylon-phasers would really count in this discussion anyway, as 1. we've only seen it once and 2. as you (and Mr. Farrand, I love the guy) point out, it's impossible for the phasers to come out of that spot. Thus it's probably best to consider it as an F/X gaffe issue. It seems that Worf is also aware of this: when Riker orders another spread in BoBW Part 2, the forward phaser array and the torpedoes fire, but not the magical pylons!

(IIRC, Farrand points out that in order for the phasers to come out of the pylons, the beams would have to shoot straight up and somehow bend beyond the phaser array itself in order to do what we saw, which by itself is a funny image to think about!)

Rather, whenever I say "weapons-spread," in my mind it's usually something like the Husnock or The Arsenal of Freedom example: the salvo of torpedoes + concentrated phaser blasts from only one --usually primary-- array. The E-E did it in First Contact and Nemesis (disabling the Scimitar's cloak in the process), so I imagine that kind of weapons spread to still be the norm.

but there we could argue that it was not a combat situation, and Picard's crew could carefully calculate the yield needed for safely destroying the shieldless derelict. Really, for all we know, the torpedo there was mainly symbolic, and what our heroes did was set off the scuttling charges of the dead ship by remote, simultaneously with the ceremonial hit.

That seems a wee bit too complicated and speculative for what is an excuse for a quick visual effect, I think. Variable yields? Sure, why not? Ceremonial/symbolic torpedoes? I doubt it. Nothing in the dialogue indicates either, but the latter seems like a bit of a stretch, especially given the overall disdain for weapons use of any kind in the show.

Lastly, with the BoP, I doubt we would be having this much of a discussion had the producers simply used a different design of ship.

I don't know about that. The BoP has always been considered a worthy opponent to big capital ships - not because it would be powerful, but because it is sneaky and capable of underhanded, under-the-belt attacks. On that attack mode, it has successfully defeated a Constitution-refit in ST3 and ST5 and almost in ST6; was supposed to spit death at a Galaxy in "A Matter of Honor"; did defeat a Galaxy in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Rascals" (although in those two cases it was supposedly a larger ship of the same shape, and flying in pairs); and was still very much a frontline combat vessel in the Dominion War.

However, half these cases were under special circumstances: in ST3 and ST5, the malfunctioning state of the Enterprise is an important plot point: in ST3, Kruge points out that he should be outgunned 12-to-1 (and the Big E's shields were inoperative, too), and in ST5, even before the BoP lands a hit, the transporters can only beam two people up (though here I'm unsure of shield status). In both cases, had the Enterprise been in fully-working condition, the outcomes would be very different, I think. As ST6 showed us, she can take quite the wallop.

Speaking of ST6, the BoP there employed special, never-before-encountered tech that heavily tilted the board, but one torpedo hit upon the (presumably) unshielded ship was enough to render it a sitting duck. This tech advantage essentially removed the E-A's ability to fight back, but that ability was never really removed from the E-D against the Duras Sisters.

I'll give you "A Matter of Honor"

But for Yesterday's Enterprise (and Rascals by virtue of stock footage), those Birds of Prey were also considerably larger than your usual Dominion War-sized BoPs... their wingspan seemed to be as large as the E-D's saucer's width.

Additionally, there's that class of BoPs in The Defector in which their wingspans were nearly as wide as a Romulan Warbird, and thus comfortably wider than the E-D, too. So it could be that there are multiple types of BoPs with varying strength levels, but I would still contend that the smaller BoPs (Dom War era *and* the ship in Generations) would still be no match for an unshielded Galaxy. Of course, that's just speculation on my part...