Insurrection was the best NG movie.

[BillJ]

The lack of clarity on this issue is rather disturbing to me.

Lack of Clarity?

- This is really just simple math and eminent domain at work.

Insurrection fails because it is a silly moral dilemma at the heart of the story and the Ba'ku are really unlikeable. And there are just holes all over the story... I mean it's like swiss cheese.

Why hide a cloaked ship on the ground (within walking distance of the Ba'ku villiage) that has fourteen transporters? Since you have to beam them aboard anyway, do it from orbit. You can beam up eighty-four people at a time, at roughly a minute to transport... you can beam up six hundred people in under eight minutes. Sensors should have been able to re-create the Ba'ku villiage, so no real need for a duck-blind to observe. You're not planning on studying them, not planning a 'First Contact' mission.

The clarity I'm referring to is the fact that just because they were not native to that planet doesn't mean they don't have a right to it. The fact that, really, the Federation had no claim on the planet. Hell, I can claim that the state of California belongs to me, but that doesn't make it so.

And I just do not see what makes the Baku so unlikable. All they were doing is living their lives, not bothering anybody. As I previously pointed out, they never denied anyone the benefits of their planet or the option to settle there. All they objected to was the destruction of their planet and all life on it.

The Sona and the Federation didn't even appear to try to find another solution and if they were so convinced they were doing the right thing, why bother with the holoship in the first place? Why make it a secret? If the plot was flawed, and I agree it could have been stronger in some areas, it was flawed on the other side.

You're not going to get an argument from me that there were better ways to handle the Ba'ku relocation. But those seedy elements were needed to make Dougherty and the S'ona into 'bad guys', so our heroes could go in and save the day.

Maybe if the Ba'ku weren't techno-phobes they could have stuck their heads up once in a while and had a say in the galactic arena and perhaps offered a different solution to everyone's problem since they were technologically advanced.

They helped create the problem in the movie. If they had been paying attention and participating in the Federation, they could have had a say. The map was drawn and they were recognized as being in Federation territory.

Think: If you ain't gonna vote... don't complain when the taxes go up.

 

[Shakaar]

Uh...if they've been on that planet for over 300 years, with no ships or anything, they probably didn't even know the Federation existed. They certainly hadn't been granted membership status, which would have been necessary for them to have a vote. This type of situation is a perfect example of the Federation willfully violating the Prime Directive, hence Picard's line about this being an attack against the Federation's soul.

The Baku had every right to decide to live without advanced technology whether it's a decision you agree with or not. I couldn't and wouldn't want to live like that myself, but it is their decision to make. They can't obviously be expected to announce themselves and share their "secret" (which wasn't really a secret) to someone they didn't even know existed.

Look, I don't think this is the best TNG movie, although I do think its criminally underrated by some. It does have flaws. But I think there was a certain amount of courage involved in making a movie so different from First Contact after its massive box-office success. Is the movie a complete success? No. But I still find it really enjoyable and the locations and sets were gorgeous.

 

[BillJ]

Uh...if they've been on that planet for over 300 years, with no ships or anything, they probably didn't even know the Federation existed. They certainly hadn't been granted membership status, which would have been necessary for them to have a vote. This type of situation is a perfect example of the Federation willfully violating the Prime Directive, hence Picard's line about this being an attack against the Federation's soul.

The Prime Directive doesn't apply here. Even by Next Gen standards. Then the Ba'ku put themselves in a very vulnerable position by completely eliminating technology from their lives. If the galactic map had been drawn a bit different they may have fallen under the Klingon or Romulan governments. They wouldn't have messed around with holo-ships... they would've just obliterated the Ba'ku. Picard is in an interesting place in this film. He is on record as saying his decision-making is above that of a democratically elected body.

The Baku had every right to decide to live without advanced technology whether it's a decision you agree with or not. I couldn't and wouldn't want to live like that myself, but it is their decision to make. They can't obviously be expected to announce themselves and share their "secret" (which wasn't really a secret) to someone they didn't even know existed.

The Ba'ku made a choice that led them to where we see them in the film. They chose to hide themselves and not pay attention to what was going on around them.

Look, I don't think this is the best TNG movie, although I do think its criminally underrated by some. It does have flaws. But I think there was a certain amount of courage involved in making a movie so different from First Contact after its massive box-office success. Is the movie a complete success? No. But I still find it really enjoyable and the locations and sets were gorgeous.

Great looking film as I've said before. But pretty doesn't cut it when the story doesn't work.

 

[STR]

yes but thats because the budget was meager. Like 21st century earth was relegated to the same bit of grass and field that they used for countless alien planets. It was probably the same piece of land they used for the lore/borg episode.

First Contact's planetside scenes were filmed practically on location at a Titan missile silo-turned-museum in Montana. Stewart and Spiner touched an actual Titan missile.

Insurrection was filmed way out in the middle of nowhere too. The Baku village was a huge set built from the ground up for the movie.

 

[JarodRussell]

yes but thats because the budget was meager. Like 21st century earth was relegated to the same bit of grass and field that they used for countless alien planets. It was probably the same piece of land they used for the lore/borg episode.

First Contact's planetside scenes were filmed practically on location at a Titan missile silo-turned-museum in Montana. Stewart and Spiner touched an actual Titan missile.

Insurrection was filmed way out in the middle of nowhere too. The Baku village was a huge set built from the ground up for the movie.

And given that the new Star Trek movie with a much bigger budget returned to where every Star Trek had already been before: the Vasquez rocks, that were used for countless alien planets.

First Contact's and Insurrection's exterior scenes were actually top notch for Trek. Huge sets, on location, not on a soundstage, and at places where they hadn't filmed Star Trek before.

 

[Chrisisall]

And I just do not see what makes the Baku so unlikable.

An inate hatred of well-to-do Hippies exists, however illogical that may sound.

 

[Chrisisall]

Uh...if they've been on that planet for over 300 years, with no ships or anything, they probably didn't even know the Federation existed.

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

 

[JarodRussell]

But it means they claimed the planet long before the Federation was even born. That would actually give them the right to shoot the intruders at the doorstep.

 

[Chrisisall]

But it means they claimed the planet long before the Federation was even born. That would actually give them the right to shoot the intruders at the doorstep.

Yep.

 

[Subspace]

The movie was'nt too Bad, But First Contact is way better Nuff Said .

 

[trevanian]

yes but thats because the budget was meager. Like 21st century earth was relegated to the same bit of grass and field that they used for countless alien planets. It was probably the same piece of land they used for the lore/borg episode.

First Contact's planetside scenes were filmed practically on location at a Titan missile silo-turned-museum in Montana. Stewart and Spiner touched an actual Titan missile.

Insurrection was filmed way out in the middle of nowhere too. The Baku village was a huge set built from the ground up for the movie.

Only the silo interiors were shot in the Montana museum, everything else was SoCal. Shoot, GEN has more sustained exotic location work, if you consider Nevada or the Pacific to be exotic.

And I think INS would have been wiser to modify or redress an existing location, like an old movie fort, because they could have spent the baku village money on other parts of the film that needed some oomph (ditto for Paradise City in TFF.)

FC fails totally on delivering postww3 earth because it doesn't show us a damned thing. There aren't any signs of nuclear winter from orbit (though there should be), there is no shuttlecraft flyover of bombed out cities, NOTHING that shows the horror, so the whole 'phoenix flight heralds golden age' angle is weakened enormously, because it doesn't look like things are horrible there. It sort of proves Verhoeven's point in ROBOCOP that you NEEDED to show Murphy's painful execution, because you have to show the crucifixion before you get to the resurrection ... and in Trek's case, that meant showing a blasted Earth before they landed in Resurrection.

Ideally, we should have seen stuff on earth that was as ugly and horrifying as the Borg in orbit (which would have been an interesting point to make, like Ripley talking about how humans are as bad or worse than the aliens because you don't see them fucking each other over.)

Because whatever ooga-booga cyborgs and slobbering xenomorphs can do to us, we can probably do it to ourselves even worse.

 

[Kegg]

Insurrection suffers from tonal shifts, awkward comedy, and - much like The Final Frontier - a bold idea whittled down to something more bland. Said 'bold' idea in both cases is probably wouldn't have worked anyway. Combine this with a questionable moral premise, and we're left with quite a number of chinks in this picture's armour.

But you know what? Aside from everything I just said it's okay. It was also the first Trek movie I saw in theatres, (which may also explain why I really enjoyed the new movie - when the cinematic experience is measured against this movie and Nemesis, well...)

In another way, Insurrection is Generations, Mark II. It wants to be an intelligent and provocative movie much in the manner of the TNG episodes, but is too bounded by TNG episodes on the one hand and too enmeshed in structural and logical flaws to really work as it ought. These are reasons to fail the movie, but not as aggressively as a picture which becomes cinematic and also not good and even out of style for TNG, as Nemesis did.

 

[potablog]

This is probably my least fav of the TNG films...

 

[Ssosmcin]

I liked it a lot. It was fun, had some great cinematography, cool Goldsmith score, a glimpse of Donna Murphy's nipple, humor, romance and great performances from the cast.

Then again, I liked all 11 trek films, and don't consider any of them to earn the "crap" rating. Honestly, considering the gazillion films ever made, no Trek product has EVER reach the depths of "crap". Sloppy, weird, could be better, sure. But crap? Compared to movies like "Mageforce", "Super Fuzz" and "Roller Boogie?" Trek films are grand fun.

 

[Myasishchev]

Generations was a dud.
First Contact was certainly exciting enough, but what did it really have to say? That a major World War is coming? That Zephram was an idiot drunk, as WELL as a genius?
And Nemesis...well, nuff said...

Insurrection had a good story with believable character motivations, good FX, and a meaningful & subtle semi-love interest for Picard.
I've heard much negativity about it, but rarely much beyond "Meh, it's like a long episode!"
LOL, like that's a bad thing???

I challenge anyone to say anything substantive concerning their dislike of this movie.
Beyong the admittedly goofy "gortch" gag. And that was a small thing, really.

In brief:

It's boring.

It's stupid.

In detail:

Its comedy is comprised almost entirely bad jokes (even if I did laugh at floatation device Data).

It sees Patrick Stewart's ego completing its undermine of the Picard character and the TNG franchise as a whole.

Its moral ambiguity is not played amibguously, and indeed is so preachy that the B'aku wind up being hated even more than they probably deserve, which is still frankly a lot. Many people have reached the conclusion that the Son'a had a right to the planet they had been wrongfully exiled from by a totalitarian society of back-to-the-land communists, who were certainly mere colonists of a much larger civilization anyway, and not natives.

The holoship relocation plan is totally unnecessary and possibly much more humane than the B'aku deserve. Just beam them up and throw them somewhere. That's what they did to the Son'a.

The action scenes are lame and cheap.

Why the hell did the Starfleet take Data to B'aku anyway?

Immortality field? Oh, come on. That's dumber than the freakin' nexus.

When do these people screw? There are actual children, and presumably virile/fertile 300 year olds, so why aren't there more than 600 of them? Do these jerks actually have laws about when people can reproduce? Or even have sex? I'll point out that prophylactics are a form of technology. Then again, so are houses. So is language. These people are dicks.

I'm sure there are many other valid points I'm missing. This movie sucks in almost every frame.

In the interest of fairness, however, I will say that the movie has few good points:

The slowing down time thing was out of left field, but cool.

The Son'a battleships are awesome designs.

Riker and Troi getting back together was relatively well-played, continuity issues aside, and vastly more interesting than Picard and his GMILF.

 

[Myasishchev]

Uh...if they've been on that planet for over 300 years, with no ships or anything, they probably didn't even know the Federation existed. They certainly hadn't been granted membership status, which would have been necessary for them to have a vote. This type of situation is a perfect example of the Federation willfully violating the Prime Directive, hence Picard's line about this being an attack against the Federation's soul.

The Baku had every right to decide to live without advanced technology whether it's a decision you agree with or not. I couldn't and wouldn't want to live like that myself, but it is their decision to make. They can't obviously be expected to announce themselves and share their "secret" (which wasn't really a secret) to someone they didn't even know existed.

Did the Baku (I'm tired of putting in that fake aspiration mark) have every right to exile their citizens? Can 600 people have such a claim to a whole planet, that they can expel their children instead of giving them the next continent over?

It isn't a matter of the Federation being right or wrong. It's a matter of who is recognized as the government of that species. As a de facto matter, even if not de jure, I'm going to recognize the guys with the battleships and warp drives and something to offer my war effort--especially when they've been wronged so severely by the selfish space hippies.

The bald fact that the Feds essentially betrayed them and broke their agreements is probably what led them to fully embrace the Dominion, as indicated in later episodes of DS9.

Let's look at Insurrection from a Sona point of view:

The Sona bent over backwards to not kill or harm their kin. I doubt this had much to do with the Feds. If they had wanted to kill their parents and oppressors, they could have done so at any time, and WTF is Admiral Doughy going to do about it? It's a Prime Directive issue, and he can't interfere with the natural development and internal affairs of their civilization.

Yet, presumably, they would have permitted them to live their natural lives out elsewhere, but they considered the public policy implications of allowing 600 jerks to keep the fountain of youth for themselves, and found them disturbing enough to take the leap of using force to repatriate their magical planet, the very homeworld of many Sona taking part in the operation. The Fed Council made the same determination, and found the operation morally and legally permissible, and offered their assistance to make the transition smoother and mitigate the damage the Sona might have otherwise caused to the "poor Baku." Perhaps they donated their new home, a whole new planet for a whole 600 people...

The agents of the Sona's nominal ally then decided that, instead of helping them, they would rather assist that rival faction of their species, perhaps as petty as a breakaway colony from the larger civilization that must exist to produce 600 individuals with language, technological capability, etc. Starfleet personnel defeated the Sona's plans of repatriating a planet that is legally as much their territory as it is the Baku's. Then, instead of being punished for violating the Federation's obligations to the Sona, Picard and company's actions are ratified by the Federation Council!

In the process, the Sona lost two capital ships, a smaller ship, and an extremely expensive radiation collector-thing, trying to defend their planet--crewed by surely more than the 600 "poor Baku"--and their political leader (?) after being stabbed in the back by rogue Starfleet officers.

The Sona then wound up having their persecutors and enemies declared an independent state by the Federation, accorded recognition and protection by the UFP's membership, and it would stand to reason the UFP's Klingon and Romulan allies as well.

I'm surprised they didn't bomb Earth along with the Breen.

 

[Shakaar]

Hmm...let's take a closer look at the Sona, shall we? First off, rather than simply move to an other location on the planet and start their own colony, they attempted a coup to overthrow the government they were living under at the time.

Then, they developed and equipped their starships with isolytic subspace weapons which had been banned by the Second Khitomer Accords.

They subjugated two entire species, the Tarlac and the Ellora and made them indentured servants and soldiers.

Even before the events of Insurrection, they were already producing Ketrocel-White for the Dominion.

These are REALLY the kind of people the Federation should be allying with.

And then, to top it all off, they return to their homeworld and first attempt to kidnap their former family members, but then kill them simply because they either a) still don't want to start another colony on the surface, or b) aren't even interested in determining if their is a better solution that won't destroy the planet surface.

Sounds like a bunch of ***holes, to me.

 

[Myasishchev]

They're still nicer than the Klingons or Romulans, and no one says the Federation shouldn't have allied with them.

Is it likely that the Feds had no need to turn a blind eye or even actively participate in Klingon or Romulan atrocities during the war with the Dominion? These people crush or obliterate civilian populations as an SOP.

Also, consider our sources: the "coup d'etat" story is narrated by one the putative victims of the putsch--specifically the whiney jackass. The Baku who stood to lose power, and who have a current need to seem like the good guys, tell the story--and even they don't deny that they absolutely refused to permit the dissident proto-Sona to live according to their wishes. Nor do they deny exiling Ruafo and his comrades to "die a slow death."

The half dozen Tarlac and Ellora we see do appear to serve the Sona, but we've seen Federales turn their noses up and condemn any unequal relationship between peoples, describing 1980s America as a dark age that we barely survived! It's not at all apparent that the Tarlac and Ellora are particularly oppressed--the conquest occurred fifty years prior. Judging by Yesterday's Enterprise, the Klingons were still ready to completely annihilate the Federation fifty years before Insurrection takes place.

They might simply be clients of the Sona, bootstrapping themselves into warp-era technology in exchange for their service.

Beyond that, taking control of the productive capacities of the Tarlac and Ellora, while possibly morally wrong and possibly at the point of a gun, may have been a matter of survival for the few hundred or few thousand Sona, stranded on some barren world without the intellectual and physical resources necessary to build a civilization of their own.

Regardless of the nature of their relationship with their subject species, the Federation has never been bent on a moral crusade to liberate the conquered. If they were, Bajor would not have been raped, a peace treaty never would have been signed with the rapists. The Federation is neither omnipotent nor all-wise, and has not set itself up as--indeed, places great institutional obstacles in the way of becoming--a judge for all the galaxy's peoples. They have historically aligned with whomever it is in their best interest to align with, and this is for the best--the Federation peddles soft power, and plays the long game. This is why they win. This is the process by which the Klingons became nice(r) guys, and Bajor was able to forgive past atrocities and become a democratic state instead of a monstrous world full of revenge-seeking theocrats.

As for the manufacture of ketracel white, a part of every Jem'Hadar's balanced breakfast, that might have been a humanitarian gesture made by the noble Sona, to prevent the starvation-deaths of millions of Dominion soldiers--but this is purely speculation.

 

[CobraCommander]

Insurrection was weak and shallow. The Sona and Ba'ku rift was never explained fully (how did the Sona keave the planet and become a major power). What caused the Sona illness? The Sona were portrayed as evil because they had weapons of mass destruction and looked like freaks. The Federation hypocrites (Section 31) had no problem committing mass murder with the Founders if it suited their interests.

 

[Chrisisall]

I see a lot of peeps here that should be using their time to hunt down good sales on cool phaser replicas than arguing the finer points of Baku' & Sona unpleasantries.