Stop bullying T'Pol!

[Hopeful Romantic]

Uh...

T'Pol never said anything remotely like, "Visiting P'Jem is forbidden, against everything that is holy, you cannot go there."

Archer is (however grumpily) trying to look at Vulcans in a less prejudicial way, and T'Pol is trying to help him, which might be a reason behind his wanting to see P'Jem and her agreeing. Didn't help that the Vulcans at the monastery were another pack of liars. But I recall Archer being pretty nice to T'Pol while they were down there.

The Vulcans were being held hostage by the Andorians.

Vulcan violated a treaty with Andoria by hiding the listening station on P'Jem.

T'Pol chose to give her scans of the listening station to Shran. Archer didn't hold a gun to her head. She knew Vulcan was in the wrong.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

God, Archer really had no good reason to hate the Vulcans. "They held us back", oh who cares! It's a scary universe and they're your only friends!

 

[trj]

Uh...

T'Pol never said anything remotely like, "Visiting P'Jem is forbidden, against everything that is holy, you cannot go there."

Archer is (however grumpily) trying to look at Vulcans in a less prejudicial way, and T'Pol is trying to help him, which might be a reason behind his wanting to see P'Jem and her agreeing. Didn't help that the Vulcans at the monastery were another pack of liars. But I recall Archer being pretty nice to T'Pol while they were down there.

The Vulcans were being held hostage by the Andorians.

Vulcan violated a treaty with Andoria by hiding the listening station on P'Jem.

T'Pol chose to give her scans of the listening station to Shran. Archer didn't hold a gun to her head. She knew Vulcan was in the wrong.

Archer orders her to hand over the scans,he forces her to choose between his orders and her loyalty to VHC.All this could have been avoided if HE handed over the scans,a real a##hole moment for Archer

 

[cylkoth]

Uh...

T'Pol never said anything remotely like, "Visiting P'Jem is forbidden, against everything that is holy, you cannot go there."

Archer is (however grumpily) trying to look at Vulcans in a less prejudicial way, and T'Pol is trying to help him, which might be a reason behind his wanting to see P'Jem and her agreeing. Didn't help that the Vulcans at the monastery were another pack of liars. But I recall Archer being pretty nice to T'Pol while they were down there.

The Vulcans were being held hostage by the Andorians.

Vulcan violated a treaty with Andoria by hiding the listening station on P'Jem.

T'Pol chose to give her scans of the listening station to Shran. Archer didn't hold a gun to her head. She knew Vulcan was in the wrong.

Well, I wuz trying to be funny. But my point-she very firmly and strongly told him that it wasn't advisable to intrude on them, and he pestered her until she relented and made arrangements. Her advice got tossed out the airlock, without condsideration by John-boy. I'm a human from the USA. If I go to Rome and pass by a monastery on a tour, and want to visit, and am told it would be disruptive to the monks routine, I don't get to just barge in because I wanted to.

It doesn't matter that the Vulcans were violating their treaty with Andoria. It's their treaty/relationship with another species, one he knows nothing about. How would Archer have felt if someone from another world outed covert offworld CIA activities surveying hostile activity against Earth citizens? Putting Earth at risk in the process?
But he's Jonathan Archer, and he's always right..even when he's dead wrong.

 

[JiNX-01]

Uh...

T'Pol never said anything remotely like, "Visiting P'Jem is forbidden, against everything that is holy, you cannot go there."

Archer is (however grumpily) trying to look at Vulcans in a less prejudicial way, and T'Pol is trying to help him, which might be a reason behind his wanting to see P'Jem and her agreeing. Didn't help that the Vulcans at the monastery were another pack of liars. But I recall Archer being pretty nice to T'Pol while they were down there.

The Vulcans were being held hostage by the Andorians.

Vulcan violated a treaty with Andoria by hiding the listening station on P'Jem.

T'Pol chose to give her scans of the listening station to Shran. Archer didn't hold a gun to her head. She knew Vulcan was in the wrong.

Archer orders her to hand over the scans,he forces her to choose between his orders and her loyalty to VHC.All this could have been avoided if HE handed over the scans,a real a##hole moment for Archer

She could have refused. She wasn't his slave.

 

[trj]

Uh...

T'Pol never said anything remotely like, "Visiting P'Jem is forbidden, against everything that is holy, you cannot go there."

Archer is (however grumpily) trying to look at Vulcans in a less prejudicial way, and T'Pol is trying to help him, which might be a reason behind his wanting to see P'Jem and her agreeing. Didn't help that the Vulcans at the monastery were another pack of liars. But I recall Archer being pretty nice to T'Pol while they were down there.

The Vulcans were being held hostage by the Andorians.

Vulcan violated a treaty with Andoria by hiding the listening station on P'Jem.

T'Pol chose to give her scans of the listening station to Shran. Archer didn't hold a gun to her head. She knew Vulcan was in the wrong.

Archer orders her to hand over the scans,he forces her to choose between his orders and her loyalty to VHC.All this could have been avoided if HE handed over the scans,a real a##hole moment for Archer

She could have refused. She wasn't his slave.

No shes not his slave,but hes her commanding officer refusing an order is a big deal.

 

[SFRabid]

Andorian Incident is one of the best episodes of Enterprise. T'Pol handing over the data after she scanned it was a defining moment in the episode and the ongoing Andorian/Vulcan conflict. T'Pol chose honor over a corrupt Vulcan leadership. She considered the act of placing a listening post at one of the most cherished Vulcan monasteries to be wrong. Having T'Pol hand over the data also made an impression on Sharan. She also proved loyalty to her captain and ship. This was some of the best writing in Trek. Too bad there was not more of it.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

But my point-she very firmly and strongly told him that it wasn't advisable to intrude on them, and he pestered her until she relented and made arrangements.

From the episode:

Archer: I take it this P'Jem is under Vulcan jurisdiction?
T'Pol: It's an ancient spiritual retreat. A remote sanctuary for Kolinahr and peaceful meditation.
Trip: Kolinahr?
T'Pol: The Vulcan purging of emotion.
Archer: That sounds interesting. How do you think they'd feel about a visit?
T'Pol: P'Jem is a place of quiet contemplation, Captain. I'm not certain we'd be welcome.
Archer: It's not every day we get a chance to see an ancient Vulcan monastery. I'd say a stopover's too good a chance to pass up. Unless you disagree?
T'Pol: I'll research the proper protocols.

I didn't really get the impression of T'Pol trying to throw up a huge roadblock, or Archer badgering her relentlessly until she caved and gave in.

Archer orders her to hand over the scans,he forces her to choose between his orders and her loyalty to VHC.

From the episode:

T'Pol: I've completed my scans.
Archer: Give it to him.
T'Pol: Sir?
Archer: Give it to him.
(T'Pol hands the scanner to Shran. Considering how forthright she's been with assessments that people don't want to hear, it is interesting that she makes no protest here.)
Archer to Shran: You've got what you came for. Now get out of here.
Shran, suspicious as always: How do we know you won't attack our vessel?
Archer: The Vulcans violated your treaty. Your people ought to know about it. (to T'Pol) You have a problem with that?
(Here's her big chance. But...)
T'Pol to Reed: Your communicator.
(Reed hands her his communicator.)
T'Pol: T'Pol to Enterprise.
Travis's voice: Go ahead.
T'Pol: The Andorian ship will be leaving the surface momentarily. They're free to go.

I didn't interpret Archer's "Give it to him" as an order, because of what T'Pol did afterward. But I can certainly see how it could be interpreted as an order.

But "forced" to meekly obey Archer against her will? I didn't see it that way. She didn't have to tell Travis to let the Andorians go; Archer was perfectly capable of that. She appears to have been making a point-- to Archer and Shran.

T'Pol chose honor over a corrupt Vulcan leadership. She considered the act of placing a listening post at one of the most cherished Vulcan monasteries to be wrong. Having T'Pol hand over the data also made an impression on Shran. She also proved loyalty to her captain and ship.

This.

 

[Treknut]

T'Pol giving the scans over to Shran was stupid.
Doing so put a cultural relic in danger and she basically put Archer, who had really shown her nothing but scorn, above her peoples interests. She knew about the history war and distrust between the two races. It could of started a full blown war.

Archer ordering T'Pol to do it was even worse.
The Andorians had taken them hostage and beaten them up. One Andorian even alludes to raping T'Pol, yet Archer goes right ahead and gives sensative data to a hostile alien species he knows nothing about. He was supposed to be allies with Vulcan but given the first oportunity he bones them.

 

[bluedana]

I'm a human from the USA. If I go to Rome and pass by a monastery on a tour, and want to visit, and am told it would be disruptive to the monks routine, I don't get to just barge in because I wanted to.

If visiting the monastery was so disruptive or forbidden, there would not have been a protocol for doing so. There's a difference between "you can't come in," and "if you do come in, please observe these rules." I got the impression that T'Pol was kind of embarrassed about being in the company of humans and was afraid of them making a bad impression, much like her list of things not to do when they met the Vulcan ambassador, V'Lar.

 

[JiNX-01]

Archer orders her to hand over the scans,he forces her to choose between his orders and her loyalty to VHC.All this could have been avoided if HE handed over the scans,a real a##hole moment for Archer

She could have refused. She wasn't his slave.

No shes not his slave,but hes her commanding officer refusing an order is a big deal.

Well, earlier in the episode she took offense when he questioned whether she would side with the Vulcans or him if it came down to a choice... and she clearly was not on the fence there ...
And you might recall that she looks ashamed when she realizes the VHC has been dishonest in its dealings with the Andorians. As an honest person, I believe she would have done it on her own, anyway.

 

[Treknut]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b341/Jinx01/theandorianincident_440-1.jpg

An interesting Photo.

Malcolm Reed, a character portrayed as driven by duty and honour, was part of Section 31 and hid this from Archer. It was a secret organisation looking out for Humanity. In Affliction he hid the fact that Klingons had attacked the Rigellians from Archer.

T'Pol was once an agent for the Securtiy Ministry. She must of known that sometimes you must embelish the truth in dangerous times. She did take part in covert ops too.

In Proving Ground the Andorians only went into the Expanse to get the Xindi Weapon for themselves. Shran only jettisoned the weapon when it was set to overload.

Are Humans only allowed to lie and double deal ?


(Reminder: no hotlinking of images, Treknut. --HR)

 

[Tallis Rhul]

I really like the fact that the Vulcans "are capable" of having dark hidden agendas, and it was obvious they had a listening post from the moment Trip found that door if not before. The Vulcans came unstitched at P'Jem, and despite the way Archer handled things (I agree with trj I think, he could have handed the scans over himself), T'Pol following the order most likely did the Vulcan/Andorian relationship some good, even if it was only a small amount.

The scene from the Andorian Incident that kinda put Archer in his place was the one where she ends up asking if she's ever failed to follow one of his orders and then nicks the blanket. Married cuople alert!

 

[ellenbetty]

Haven't you ever heard of a guy being a gentleman and offering a lady a coat (or a blanket) when she is cold? LOL.

 

[commodore64]

I think the whole "being mean to T'Pol" thing is overstated.

Agree. I think if the person who initiated this thread continues to watch he'll see a friendship begin to develop among the humans and T'Pol.

 

[cylkoth]

^^ Trip and Archer are CONSTANTLY asking her to be something that she's not. They constantly berate Vulcan culture to her face...they demand that she do things she has no interest in. They refuse to even attempt to see things from her point of view, and ask that she bow to their (lack of) wisdom.
That is a form of meanness, at least, to me.

 

[commodore64]

The scene from the Andorian Incident that kinda put Archer in his place was the one where she ends up asking if she's ever failed to follow one of his orders and then nicks the blanket. Married cuople alert!

Yup. Through the series, I thought it seemed Archer was the dad of Enterprise (sometimes the disciplinarian and sometimes Mr. Fun Guy) and T'Pol was the mom (went to Dad to change his mind, sometimes had the upper hand on Dad, etc.).

 

[Joel_Kirk]

In TATV, I think Archer still berated T'Pol...and ordered her to tell Chef/Riker what dish she would like for the upcoming dinner.

I was thinking: 'Wow'....

 

[Tallis Rhul]

The scene from the Andorian Incident that kinda put Archer in his place was the one where she ends up asking if she's ever failed to follow one of his orders and then nicks the blanket. Married cuople alert!

Yup. Through the series, I thought it seemed Archer was the dad of Enterprise (sometimes the disciplinarian and sometimes Mr. Fun Guy) and T'Pol was the mom (went to Dad to change his mind, sometimes had the upper hand on Dad, etc.).

Awesome analogy!

 

[bluedana]

In TATV, I think Archer still berated T'Pol...and ordered her to tell Chef/Riker what dish she would like for the upcoming dinner.

I was thinking: 'Wow'....

Well, that's not really true. He acknowledges that she doesn't trust Shran, tells her why he's going to help him, and asks her to understand. Then, here's the dialogue with respect to dinner:

ARCHER: By the way, drop by the galley when you get a moment. Chef's trying to come up with a menu for our last dinner together. He wants to know everybody's favourite dish.
T'POL: There are eighty three crewmembers aboard.
ARCHER: Just go see him, all right?
(She leaves, and Porthos jumps up to his master)
ARCHER: Don't worry. Chef's promised at least six kinds of cheese.

She's not saying "I don't want to," she's questioning whether Chef can accommodate the preferences of 83 different people. He responds, "Just go see him, all right?"
Hardly berating and ordering, that.

Trip and Archer are CONSTANTLY asking her to be something that she's not. They constantly berate Vulcan culture to her face...they demand that she do things she has no interest in. They refuse to even attempt to see things from her point of view, and ask that she bow to their (lack of) wisdom.

Okay, if it's so CONSTANT, and there are 97 episodes, then there must be reams of examples. Can you give some? (And not just, they didn't take her advice. . .) Because I've heard variations on this theme for years now, and I've a hunch that is is a wild exaggeration, if not completely untrue.