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Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discuss

Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

My first thought was... That's their problem. :lol:

Dude. Cold. :lol:
Just to clarify, I meant that it's the loved ones' problem if they can't accept a duplicate/replacement or treat them well. I figure that if the duplicate feels that they're real and legitimate, but finds that they're not accepted by those around them, then that's something that those people will have to work through. I'm giving the duplicate the benefit of the doubt on this one.

How does this apply to Nathan? I'd like to do the same, thinking that he might be in there somewhere, but I'll wait and see where this goes.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

The loved ones problem? It's loyalty to the real person. A copy is not the same person. There's something chilling about the idea of your loved ones being able to accept a copy of you as if you never existed. It devalues all life. Don't worry honey. Mommy doesn't miss you now that you're dead. She just had a copy made.....from your killer....and now she accepts him as you.

That's a little too well adjusted, don't you think? I hope we're never that "evolved" as a society. How could Angela ever accept Sylar as Nathan, even if Sylar wanted to be Nathan? It's just....wrong.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

The loved ones problem? It's loyalty to the real person. A copy is not the same person. There's something chilling about the idea of your loved ones being able to accept a copy of you as if you never existed. It devalues all life. Don't worry honey. Mommy doesn't miss you now that you're dead. She just had a copy made.....from your killer....and now she accepts him as you.

That's a little too well adjusted, don't you think? I hope we're never that "evolved" as a society. How could Angela ever accept Sylar as Nathan, even if Sylar wanted to be Nathan? It's just....wrong.
I'm looking at this from a first person perspective. What if I found out that I was a copy of the original who just died? Even if others have doubts, I feel real and I know I'm me even if I'm told that "he" died, so it's up to them to somehow get reassured that everything is alright. I kind of laughed at it because I figure that if they want to get worked up over whether or not I'm real, then that's their problem. I already know I'm still here. You did make a good point though about being sensitive to their perspective.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

Mohinder jumped ship and joined psych...He pretty much fits there.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

It guess was OK overall. Better than the train wreck I was anticipating.

Pluses:
- The carnies were interesting
- What Peter does
- HeadSylar is amusing

Minuses:
- HRG... Ugh. I think he needs to be killed off.
- Less Traci/whatever her character's name is this season

And in conclusion the Sylar/Nathan thing was still a stupefyingly idiotic thing to do.

I'll keep watching I guess. But this season could go either way. And most likely it is the last season anyway.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

It was alright.

Peter seems to have a brain now now. Thank god.

I'm not a big fan of Claire in school or whatever. So Claire is going to be Veronica Mars this season? At least we might get to see some new hot actresses.

The new villains were pretty cool. Loved T-Bag and Darth Maul. I'll learn the names of the characters eventually.

I'm glad Danko bought the farm. The guy was a loose thread that should have been take care of in last year's season finale. The character wasn't written that well but the actor that played Danko did his best.

The Nathan/Sylar stuff can go either way. So I guess we will have to see. Quinto continues to give it his all no matter how his character is used. The writers should apologize to him for writing Sylar so inconstantly last season. Let's hope Sylar doesn't switch from good to evil to good in every other episode this year.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

I'm still waiting for this to be a revenge plot of that Irish girl stuck in the alternate future.

At least that'd make this wackiness all worth it. :p
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

Okay, got around to watching this last night. I'll call it Above Average, but that's AA for Heroes, which puts it a peg below something like House for me.

Peter's storyline makes sense so far, and I figured out as soon as he asked Noah "how fast?" that the only reason he was coming along was to get Ray Park's speed power. Peter using his power intelligently?! When did this start?! It was a nice change from the Heroes being raging idiots when it comes to their abilities.

Noah's characterization is still good, even though I wonder where this whole "New Company" story is going. I assume they will butt up against the Carnies at some point, and form the central conflict of this volume.

Matt's Sylar problem was only interesting for a couple minutes, and then it started to feel overdone. The first scene, where he couldn't find the baby? Should have been cut. Sylar should have first appeared during the interrogation or maybe during the group session. Either way, this storyline will fail to deliver unless Matt becomes Onslaught. :lol:

I take it I'm not the only one who thinks Claire's new friend killed her roommate. And once again, Claire does a stupid: "let's jump out a window and hope nobody sees!" Of course somebody will see! This is fucking Heroes! Someone always sees!

The Hiro story was very frustrating as it was obvious from the time we heard about the "slushy incident" that Hiro was going to go back and prevent it. And it took forever to do it. Get a clue, writers: the audience isn't stupid. You don't have to telegraph these things for 20 minutes before we "get it." Just get on with it already. And I will be surprised if they really kill him off. They can't ever seem to bring themselves to permanently off any of the regulars on this show.

I hope Tracy becomes a character at some point, instead of a walking swimming pool with tits. But that might be asking too much of Ali Larter.

The Carnies were interesting, although the woman playing Lydia (I think?) is just terrible. The acting was so wooden, I thought I was watching a Voyager episode for a minute there. At least there is a mystery to unfold here, and I hope it's an interesting one with some complexity, and not a simple "Danko killed my brother, now everyone else is going to pay" sort of thing.

SylarNate has turned out a little better than I expected. He really does seem to believe he's Nathan, to the point that having other powers pop up is really freaking him out. I like that. I also like how worried everyone else is that Sylar is going to come barging out of him at any moment. I give the writers too much credit here, but it would be nice to see everyone else's fear of him returning to the Sylar persona turn out to be what actually causes him to do so. Having Matt's rewriting of his mind just gradually degrade kind of sucks the drama out of it, since it takes the situation out of everyone's hands and we're just watching a ticking time bomb.

On the somewhat controversial topic of whether SylarNate "is" Nathan Petrelli: he is if he believes he is. One's physical composition--the matter that makes up your body--is a poor measure of what makes you "you," since that is turned over on a regular basis. That leaves you with appearance, personality, and memories. I think most would argue your appearance does not determine who you are. Someone who goes through a disfiguring accident is not suddenly a brand-new person. So, personality and memories--both of which, SylarNate has. He is, at the least, "a" Nathan. He can't be "the" Nathan, but then if the original was still around, that would only be "a" Nathan, as well.

So, if they really want him to be Nathan, they have to keep reinforcing his belief that he is. I suspect Angela has been acting weird and shifty around him, and making him doubt who he is. That's not gonna help, Ma.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

What happened to the (Irish?) accent Knepper was using in the first scene? By his 2nd or 3rd scene it had almost entirely vanished.

I enjoyed the premiere. Like others, I enjoyed seeing Peter as a paramedic again. I'm not sure I like this Sylar/Nathan thing. Did they do this just to work around Quinto's absence? (Was he still filming Star Trek at the time?).
He filmed Star Trek in 2007, during season 2 of Heroes. The sequel hasn't been even written, so he couldn't be filming that, either.

That would be the most ludicrous twist that's happened to the poor guy yet - his whole schitck is wanting to be special and individual. That's why what's happened to him is poetic justice, his worst fears come true.
exactly and Nathan is powerful, wealthy, has family, friends, etc... wouldnt he love to be him? he seemed to be enjoying being him towards the end of last season.

Now if Nathan-Sylar develops an individual sense of identity and a will to live - and why wouldn't he? - he might resist a re-take-over by Sylar-Sylar. But that wouldn't really be Sylar making that decision. Nathan-Sylar is a new character, neither Nathan nor Sylar.
yes! that's what I want to happen. But that means Sylar loses and the writers wont let that happen unless they give him Multiple Man powers and they split the body.
I can't believe people are even discussing whether Sathan :devil: is Nathan or Sylar. Of course he is Sylar (or Gabriel Gray, if you prefer) who believes he is Natahn! His conversation with Angela contained two big hints to the audience - one was his line about feeling invincible and not like a mortal; the other one was when he said that when he looked back at his life, it didn't feel like his life...and that he felt he had been a lousy son, brother and father, and wanted to be better from that point on: "I want to be a better me!" Remember what Sylar told Nathan in the last season's finale? He basically felt that Nathan was a pampered loser who was given everything on the plate, but never really managed to do as well with it as he should have. Sylar/Nathan now feeling that he can be a better Nathan than Nathan had been, is totally consistent with this.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

I'm looking at this from a first person perspective. What if I found out that I was a copy of the original who just died? Even if others have doubts, I feel real and I know I'm me even if I'm told that "he" died, so it's up to them to somehow get reassured that everything is alright. I kind of laughed at it because I figure that if they want to get worked up over whether or not I'm real, then that's their problem. I already know I'm still here. You did make a good point though about being sensitive to their perspective

Thank you.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

My thoughts on Sylar/Nathan:

First, in regards to the metaphysical discussion on self/identity, I agree that he is 100% Sylar. He just believes that he's Nathan. If mental patients believes that he is Napoleon that doesn't make him Napoleon.

Secondly, I may have missed something here, but people have been insinuating that Sylar has Nathan's memories. Why would we think this? My understanding is that Matt simply forced Sylar to believe he was Nathan. I wouldn't think that Matt even has the ability to transfer memories (he can read minds and control minds correct?). So Sylar is now just an approximation of who/what Matt and Sylar believed Nathan was.

Also, in the past, seemed to have no problem witht the notion of killing Sylar. In fact they've all tried to do it several times. Now that they seem to believe that the brainwashing didn't work and that the Sylar persona will return then why not kill him? It may seem harsh but if Sylar "wakes up" I'm sure they'd all have no doubt that he'd return to his killing spree. I hope that address those particular motivations. Somehow though I think it will fall into the category of "Heroes characters making stupid decisions for no particular reason."
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

Did anyone else find it weird that the carnival guy was also on HBO's short lived but incredibly strange Carnivale? Although on Carnivale, he wasn't even in the carnival. Just FYI.

Heroes is still worth watching, but it bothers me that after all these years of being heroes and saving the day, no one seems to recognize any of them. With the exception of Claire's buddy (OMG Californication) googling her name, when the series premiered I thought, won't it be interesting as these characters become famous over time and slowly creep their way into pop culture a la Superman or even the heroes of Watchmen. But no. No one ever seems to notice or care though 4 chapters.

Does anyone know for sure if this is the last season? I'd care for it to continue as long as it's good... but I don't know where things are headed. How is it supposed to end?
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

It is not intended to be the last season, I'm sure.

But that is what most people are expecting, since the ratings are in a big decline. Odds are the show will not be renewed unless things improve.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

Also, in the past, seemed to have no problem witht the notion of killing Sylar. In fact they've all tried to do it several times. Now that they seem to believe that the brainwashing didn't work and that the Sylar persona will return then why not kill him? It may seem harsh but if Sylar "wakes up" I'm sure they'd all have no doubt that he'd return to his killing spree. I hope that address those particular motivations. Somehow though I think it will fall into the category of "Heroes characters making stupid decisions for no particular reason."

I would guess that it's for one very simple reason: he cannot be killed. I think that's a pretty good reason.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

I have a perfect exit for Hiro. Hiro can go back, prevent Nathan's death by sacrificing himself Hiroically, and then GO AWAY. I hate that the show has made me hate Hiro. I loved him and Ando first season. Now they can't seem to make them NOT stupid and annoying. "Dial-a-Hero"?!?!? REALLY?!?!? Just gag me now with a long serrated blade. And then Hiro deciding his TRUE mission is to go back and right all the wrongs in his life ... come on! Can't we PLEASE either give the boy some maturity or KILL HIM OFF ALREADY.

*deep breath*

Okay, I feel a little better now.

I'm not sure I can forgive the show for the Nathan/Sylar thing, for the singular reason that now we have all this identity/duplicate discussion to scroll through. :rolleyes:

Good things - for the first time since the first season, I don't hate Peter or Claire.
Bad things - see Hiro and Nathan/Sylar rants above.

The rest was one big MEH. I hate the way this show hooks me. We have an episode like this that doesn't hoover beyond belief, that somehow makes us think just maybe the producers & writers have finally recovered the magic. But I don't really believe it. I can't shake the pessimism born of the mediocrity/utter badness that was volumes 2-4. But I can't seem to look away.

Is it bad that I didn't even NOTICE Mohinder was missing until I read this thread? :lol:
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

Of course he is Sylar (or Gabriel Gray, if you prefer) who believes he is Natahn! His conversation with Angela contained two big hints to the audience - one was his line about feeling invincible and not like a mortal; the other one was when he said that when he looked back at his life, it didn't feel like his life...and that he felt he had been a lousy son, brother and father, and wanted to be better from that point on: "I want to be a better me!" Remember what Sylar told Nathan in the last season's finale? He basically felt that Nathan was a pampered loser who was given everything on the plate, but never really managed to do as well with it as he should have. Sylar/Nathan now feeling that he can be a better Nathan than Nathan had been, is totally consistent with this.

you know what bothers me about that? Its that the writers are basically saying that Sylar was a better person than Nathan, so much better that he deserves Nathan's life(his possesions, friends, family etc) which is just disturbing and sad. Because yeah while Nathan wasnt a great guy you cant tell me that a deranged murderer like Sylar is any better.:wtf:

thats why Im worried that Sylar will return full force and then be all like "hey Im gonna be a good guy now! Im gonna be Nate!" and everyone else will be all hunky dory with it- damn that better not happen- maybe Angela cuz she's nuts but Peter & Claire should never be ok with that! The only way Ill accept that is if the real dead Nathan comes back with zombie powers and rips everyone's ass off in revenge.:devil:
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

I don't care if Mohinder never comes back, and I'll be doubly happy if Maya never comes back, either.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

I thought this was a promising restart. I liked where the characters are now. Peter is being a proper selfless and responsible super hero. Claire isn't being such a whiny bitch. The Sylar situation, which I found utterly ridiculous and horrible, is being handled relatively well. I didn't expect the "Sylar's Mind in Matt's Head" twist and it's a good idea given the situation. I find T-Bag's Circus to be interesting villains (reminds me strongly of Carnivale which he was in). I hated Danko with a passion, so I was mad to see him come back and delighted to see him die. I'm really not happy with Hiro changing the past (and thus the continuity of the show), though. Extremely bad idea. Claire's Magic Resurrecting Blood Which We Forget About Later bad.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

Of course he is Sylar (or Gabriel Gray, if you prefer) who believes he is Natahn! His conversation with Angela contained two big hints to the audience - one was his line about feeling invincible and not like a mortal; the other one was when he said that when he looked back at his life, it didn't feel like his life...and that he felt he had been a lousy son, brother and father, and wanted to be better from that point on: "I want to be a better me!" Remember what Sylar told Nathan in the last season's finale? He basically felt that Nathan was a pampered loser who was given everything on the plate, but never really managed to do as well with it as he should have. Sylar/Nathan now feeling that he can be a better Nathan than Nathan had been, is totally consistent with this.

you know what bothers me about that? Its that the writers are basically saying that Sylar was a better person than Nathan, so much better that he deserves Nathan's life(his possesions, friends, family etc) which is just disturbing and sad. Because yeah while Nathan wasnt a great guy you cant tell me that a deranged murderer like Sylar is any better.:wtf:
Not "better". But stronger, more determined and more focused. That much is, I think, hard to deny. Sylar thought of Nathan as a wishy-washy wimp, basically, and he thinks he can be a better Nathan, and maybe in some ways he can, but as we know, he can also be a better Evil Nathan! :devil: (Five Years Gone) I wouldn't be surprised if Sylar-Nathan acts like a totally great guy for a while, and then flips 180 degrees and starts destroying everyone and everything.
 
Re: Heroes: "Orientation" and "Jump, Push, Fall" 9/21 - Grade & Discus

Y'know, it's nice having Carnivale back and all, but I just don't buy Tommy Dolan joining up with the carnival just beca--wait, what show is this?

Nevermind...
 
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