ITT: We try to explain the plot holes

[Mach5]

Okay, so we already know that Enterprise reached Vulcan in 3 minutes at max. warp (fact established on-screen).

So, when Spock marooned Kirk on Delta Vega and warped away to Laurentian system, Kirk went to the cave, talked to Spock Prime for a while and then left with him (on foot) to a Starfleet outpost located 14 km from his crash site.

When he and Spock Prime got there, they spent a certain amount of time talking to Scotty and then he beamed them aboard the Enterprise. Isn't the Enterprise supposed to be dozens (hundreds even) of light years away by that time (since it took only 3 minutes for it to cross 16 light years)?

The only (remotely) plausible explanation for this - Enterprise didn't reach Vulcan using only warp speed, but it also passed through some kind of a worm hole which was discovered after the timelines branched out. This would also explain why Enterprise was still relatively close to Delta Vega hours after Kirk was left there.

And there's this Hobus star supernova thingy... Okay, it exploded and the shockwave that traveled many times faster than light destroyed Romulus. Spock Prime still managed to deliver the red matter into the exploding star. How the hell did he penetrate the shockwave without getting destroyed?

Possible explanation - he warped through it? Question for trekkie tech buffs and resident warp field theorists - would something like that be doable?

OK, I'm going to bed now... My head hurts...

 

[M'Sharak]

Okay, so we already know that Enterprise reached Vulcan in 3 minutes at max. warp (fact established on-screen).

So, when Spock marooned Kirk on Delta Vega and warped away to Laurentian system, Kirk went to the cave, talked to Spock Prime for a while and then left with him (on foot) to a Starfleet outpost located 14 km from his crash site.

When he and Spock Prime got there, they spent a certain amount of time talking to Scotty and then he beamed them aboard the Enterprise. Isn't the Enterprise supposed to be dozens (hundreds even) of light years away by that time (since it took only 3 minutes for it to cross 16 light years)?

The only (remotely) plausible explanation for this - Enterprise didn't reach Vulcan using only warp speed, but it also passed through some kind of a worm hole which was discovered after the timelines branched out. This would also explain why Enterprise was still relatively close to Delta Vega hours after Kirk was left there.

Didn't we just have a thread about this a week or two back?

Yep: Earth to Vulcan in 30 minutes - a possible solution?

It's got a transwarp passageway, transwarp wormhole theory and everything.

Interestingly enough, the same poster who started that thread also had a thread about The supernova that destroyed Romulus at around the same time, though you're asking a question which may not have come up in the earlier thread.

 

[BenRoethig]

The vulcan thing can be explained easily, JJ did a crappy job of conveying the passage of time

 

[number6]

The vulcan thing can be explained easily, JJ did a crappy job of conveying the passage of time

The movie is only two hours.



This thread will not end well.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Okay, so we already know that Enterprise reached Vulcan in 3 minutes at max. warp (fact established on-screen).

I'm not pro-STXI by any stretch of the imagination, but I have to point out that this statement is not entirely true. The three minute timeframe from Earth to Vulcan was not established. It was established that when Chekov made the announcement, they were three minutes from "Woolcan". That doesn't mean that some amount of time elapsed between leaving spacedock and Chekov's announcement. Remember that McCoy sedated Kirk when they arrived on the ship. I think he was asleep four quite a bit longer than 2-1/2 minutes, don't you? Maybe Captain Pike waited until they were almost there before asking Chekov to make the announcement. It could have been at least an hour. Given Kirk's sedation, that would seem more plausible.

So, when Spock marooned Kirk on Delta Vega and warped away to Laurentian system, Kirk went to the cave, talked to Spock Prime for a while and then left with him (on foot) to a Starfleet outpost located 14 km from his crash site.

Yeah. This is problematic.

When he and Spock Prime got there, they spent a certain amount of time talking to Scotty and then he beamed them aboard the Enterprise. Isn't the Enterprise supposed to be dozens (hundreds even) of light years away by that time (since it took only 3 minutes for it to cross 16 light years)?

Yeah. The Abramsprise should have been hundreds of lightyears away by then, given the amount of time that passed between Kirk's landing on the Abramsverse version of Delta Vega and their beaming onto the Abramsprise. The whole transwarp beaming thingie sounds severely convoluted and contrived. There were at least a dozen other ways they could have gotten Kirk back onto the ship without resorting to something as rediculous (even in the prime universe, that would have been silly) as transwarp beaming. I mean really, with transwarp beaming, starships become unnecessary. It makes no logical sense.

The only (remotely) plausible explanation for this - Enterprise didn't reach Vulcan using only warp speed, but it also passed through some kind of a worm hole which was discovered after the timelines branched out. This would also explain why Enterprise was still relatively close to Delta Vega hours after Kirk was left there.

Possible, but I think it took quite a bit longer than 3 minutes to get to Vulcan. See my first response. And the ship was damaged after the Narada attack at Vulcan, so it may not have been traveling at full warp speed. Hence Chekov's line "if Mr. Scott can get us to warp 4" later in the film.

And there's this Hobus star supernova thingy... Okay, it exploded and the shockwave that traveled many times faster than light destroyed Romulus. Spock Prime still managed to deliver the red matter into the exploding star. How the hell did he penetrate the shockwave without getting destroyed?

It looked like he skimmed the outer edge of the shockwave and shot the red matter bomb through the wave to reach the center (I guess). He did say the outfitted their "fastest ship". As far as a supernova threatening to destroy the galaxy??? Unless there was something really special about that particular star, a supernova would not threaten the galaxy by any stretch of the imagination.

Possible explanation - he warped through it? Question for trekkie tech buffs and resident warp field theorists - would something like that be doable?/QUOTE]

See above.

OK, I'm going to bed now... My head hurts...

Yeah. Mine too.

 

[Kpnuts]

I'm not pro-STXI by any stretch of the imagination, but I have to point out that this statement is not entirely true. The three minute timeframe from Earth to Vulcan was not established. It was established that when Chekov made the announcement, they were three minutes from "Woolcan". That doesn't mean that some amount of time elapsed between leaving spacedock and Chekov's announcement. Remember that McCoy sedated Kirk when they arrived on the ship. I think he was asleep four quite a bit longer than 2-1/2 minutes, don't you? Maybe Captain Pike waited until they were almost there before asking Chekov to make the announcement. It could have been at least an hour. Given Kirk's sedation, that would seem more plausible.

It took an hour for the engines to reach maximum warp then did it? That's what Sulu says immediately before Chekov's announcement.

Bottom line, as much as I thought the film was fantastic, JJ and co didn't really care about established distances and clearly didn't think too carefully about it.

Time to move on.

 

[ALF]

I thought Scotty's "long distance transporter-something" explained that plot hole?

 

[Pauln6]

The plot hole is partially explained by the fact that the Enterprise was damaged and travelling at less than Warp 4 for some of the journey from Delta Vega. The real plot hole isn't that Scotty could beam over such a long distance at warp, they do go some way to explain that, it is more that Starfleet doesn't have scanners that are accurate enough over several light years. They might know the ship is there, but couldnt map the internal decks. I think this kind of stunt should only work transporter to transporter. Even then I think as an idea it still sucks.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

It took an hour for the engines to reach maximum warp then did it? That's what Sulu says immediately before Chekov's announcement.

Bottom line, as much as I thought the film was fantastic, JJ and co didn't really care about established distances and clearly didn't think too carefully about it.

Time to move on.

I do agree totally with your second paragraph.

I thought Scotty's "long distance transporter-something" explained that plot hole?

Not exactly. It just explained how they were able to beam aboard teh Abramsprise while it was travelling at warp.

The plot hole is partially explained by the fact that the Enterprise was damaged and travelling at less than Warp 4 for some of the journey from Delta Vega. The real plot hole isn't that Scotty could beam over such a long distance at warp, they do go some way to explain that, it is more that Starfleet doesn't have scanners that are accurate enough over several light years. They might know the ship is there, but couldnt map the internal decks. I think this kind of stunt should only work transporter to transporter. Even then I think as an idea it still sucks.

I agree with that too. The transwarp beaming plot device sucks dramatically and is highly implausible in any universe.

 

[Mach5]

It looked like he skimmed the outer edge of the shockwave and shot the red matter bomb through the wave to reach the center (I guess).

But by that time the edge of the shocwave was already light years away from the center.

I'll just presume that the jellyfish had some kind of multi-phasic shielding which allowed it to warp through the shockwawe undamaged.

But there's another issue here. The shockwave had to travel faster than light in order to reach Romulus and spread further, right? Now imagine the jellyfish ramming this ultra fast shockwave at high warp. Those shields really had to be something in order to withstand something like that.

There is also a possibility that the ship's warp field bended the shockwave around the ship, since the wave traveled through normal space, and ship traveled through subspace.

BTW, all these plot holes don't make me love the movie any less.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I'm trying to remember. It's been a while since I last watched the movie. But in the flashback/mind meld in the cave with Kirk, it looked like the Jellyfish only got to the edge of the shockwave and launched the redmatter as it was turning away from the wave. It didn't show the Jellyfish actually penetrating the outer shell of the shockwave. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm working from memory.

 

[Flake]

Ultimatley these plot holes are only going to annoy folks like us. The majority don't notice them and don't really care. They enjoyed the movie anyway. Kurtzman and Orci can get away with it - but I think they will read the criticism and make sure it doesn't happen again, I think the next movie will be superior to this one in every way!

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I sure hope so. As enjoyable as the movie was, I wasn't impressed with the writing. They could have done much better.

 

[Mach5]

Ultimatley these plot holes are only going to annoy folks like us. The majority don't notice them and don't really care. They enjoyed the movie anyway.

Truth be told, I became completely aware of all the plot holes only after I analyzed the film in my head days after watching it. On May 7th I left the theater pretty happy, thinking: "can't wait for seconds!"

Kurtzman and Orci can get away with it - but I think they will read the criticism and make sure it doesn't happen again, I think the next movie will be superior to this one in every way!

I hope you're right. And since they apparently appreciate all the feedback they can get (they read the comments on trekmovie and stuff), we have a right to hope for the best.

 

[Devon]

Ultimatley these plot holes are only going to annoy folks like us. The majority don't notice them and don't really care. They enjoyed the movie anyway. Kurtzman and Orci can get away with it - but I think they will read the criticism and make sure it doesn't happen again, I think the next movie will be superior to this one in every way!

However, a lot of what some are throwing around as "plot holes" aren't even plot holes but rather "thought holes" in the process of those criticisms. Some people are using the term so haphazardly now that I think those same people have lost sight at what really is a "plot hole." A lot of these supposed "plot holes" are explained away with merely thinking and resolving. A lot more of the movie makes sense than what some give it credit for when you think about it where as past Star Trek would s-p-e-l-l - i-t - o-u-t. Sometimes I think this movie is actually above those same folks that cry that this film is "dumb" and not up to the supposedly "intellectual" standards that Star Trek put forth before.

Now, I am not saying this movie doesn't have problems, but just not the ones that some think it does.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

This is actually all trivial.

 

[Mach5]

Anyway, even with all these holes, this movie barely stands out (negatively, that is) compared to other Treks. For example, the NX-01 reached Qo'noS (about 90 ly from Earth) at warp 4.5 in only four days with taking a detour to Rigel ("Broken Bow"), and Voyager had similar flaws on multiple occasions (and lets not even mention Enterprise A's trip to the center of the galaxy in ST V: TFF).

 

[MvRojo]

I'm not pro-STXI by any stretch of the imagination, but I have to point out that this statement is not entirely true. The three minute timeframe from Earth to Vulcan was not established. It was established that when Chekov made the announcement, they were three minutes from "Woolcan". That doesn't mean that some amount of time elapsed between leaving spacedock and Chekov's announcement. Remember that McCoy sedated Kirk when they arrived on the ship. I think he was asleep four quite a bit longer than 2-1/2 minutes, don't you? Maybe Captain Pike waited until they were almost there before asking Chekov to make the announcement. It could have been at least an hour. Given Kirk's sedation, that would seem more plausible.

It took an hour for the engines to reach maximum warp then did it? That's what Sulu says immediately before Chekov's announcement.

Bottom line, as much as I thought the film was fantastic, JJ and co didn't really care about established distances and clearly didn't think too carefully about it.

Time to move on.

Who knows? Maybe they were easing the engines into maximum warp since it was the maiden voyage.

Also, McCoy needed to have some time to change his entire uniform, and even his dialogue when Kirk wakes up indicates some time has passed. He says something like, "Good Jim, you're up."

 

[Flake]

Yup a fair bit of time must have elapsed and the change of McCoys uniform confirms it. Sulus maximum warp line must mean that they had to ease the engines up to that speed like Rojo says..

The bit with the Enterprise warping into Titans atmosphere, originally Chekov says they will move into the Naradas blind spot at the rear of the ship as it passes by (no indication as to how the Enterprise overtakes it though) and it appears to me that they dubbed over this line in post-production and dropped the whole 'blind spot' thing in favour of deducing that Scotty transwarp beamed them onto the Narada from Titan. Transwarp beaming also apparently goes though shields too...

 

[Kpnuts]

it appears to me that they dubbed over this line in post-production and dropped the whole 'blind spot' thing in favour of deducing that Scotty transwarp beamed them onto the Narada from Titan. Transwarp beaming also apparently goes though shields too...

I thought they just regular-beamed onto the Narada? Where is the indication that it was transwarp beaming? The Narada was stationary and within the same solar system.