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Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously)

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I just finished the book and wanted to join the scores of satisfied readers - Great job, Bill! :bolian:

Losing the Peace felt like an honest-to-Q epilogue to Destiny, and I feel that (alongside A Singular Destiny) it perfectly captures the trilogy's effects on the Federation and Starfleet as a whole, as well as setting the stage for the next TrekLit publishing "event" (Typhon Pact).

Both Full Circle (which I absolutely loved) and Over a Torrent Sea (which I thought was all right) felt more detached from the ongoing plotline - which I thought was a good literary choice - and LtP's strength was exactly in the opposite choice, IMHO.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Yeah. The cleaning-up-Mack's-mess team did a damn fine job. The whole Destiny event will definitely go down as an all-time Trek highlight.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I just finished the book and wanted to join the scores of satisfied readers - Great job, Bill! :bolian:

Losing the Peace felt like an honest-to-Q epilogue to Destiny, and I feel that (alongside A Singular Destiny) it perfectly captures the trilogy's effects on the Federation and Starfleet as a whole, as well as setting the stage for the next TrekLit publishing "event" (Typhon Pact).

Both Full Circle (which I absolutely loved) and Over a Torrent Sea (which I thought was all right) felt more detached from the ongoing plotline - which I thought was a good literary choice - and LtP's strength was exactly in the opposite choice, IMHO.
Thank you kindly!
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Bill,

I also want to congratulate you on a fine read. I had a couple of questions:

1. At some time in the past, I thought Starfleet or the Federation had some kind of "colonial office" where there was a continuing process of looking for more colony and/or Class M worlds for human settlement. Frankly, I would have thought that this kind of office would exist in some form, since in a place as big as the Federation there would be resettlement issues all the time, or small-scale catastrophes that needed handled. And with the population of the Federation expanding, there has to be places to find resources or settle surplus populations who want to go to new places.

I guess as I look at the Federation, it is taking up a lot of space, and even in Picard's time has all the Federation been mapped? In short, was there any thought about having a Federation solution to at least some of this chaos at least on some level that is "off the shelf."

2. On the same line, it is interesting that only at the end of the book does the Enterprise start looking for habitable colony worlds. Wouldn't this process have started by science vessels, or even older ships "de-mothballed" for the purpose?

3. I am curious, one solution to the problems of overcrowded shipping might be for the Federation to collect some large number of merchant vessels, like passenger liners, for example, take them over and use them as people transport to balance out populations?

My whole point in general is: I understand the premise of the book. The Borg attack was on such a scale that the whole Federation has been thrown into disorder. But it seems like the whole book makes everything the Federation is doing some ad hoc seat of the pants response one new trouble issue at a time. Even governments today have plans and resources available for civil emergencies and disasters on a large scale, and private agencies have resources as well. Doesn't the Federation or Starfleet?

No criticism here, just a question or two.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Even governments today have plans and resources available for civil emergencies and disasters on a large scale, and private agencies have resources as well.

The Borg attack is orders of magnitude bigger than any disaster the Federation has ever faced. Bigger than the Dominion. Bigger than Gateways. Bigger than sentient moss.

I can cut the Federation some slack for not being prepared to deal with its own near-annihilation.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

My whole point in general is: I understand the premise of the book. The Borg attack was on such a scale that the whole Federation has been thrown into disorder. But it seems like the whole book makes everything the Federation is doing some ad hoc seat of the pants response one new trouble issue at a time. Even governments today have plans and resources available for civil emergencies and disasters on a large scale, and private agencies have resources as well. Doesn't the Federation or Starfleet?

No criticism here, just a question or two.

You bring up some excellent point about some of the strategies the Federation might be using to cope with the aftermath of the Borg invasion. But the fact of the matter is, you're talking about the deaths of at least 63 billion people, the extermination of (that we now of) somewhere around twenty planets (and probably more that we don't know of yet), and the destruction of 40% of Starfleet and God knows how many civilian ships.

Basically, the Federation's entire interplanetary infrastructure is very nearly crippled.

And while I'm sure the Federation had plans for disaster relief, the fact of the matter is that the disaster described in Destiny in on a scale larger than anything in history. I know that real countries have disaster relief plans, but consider how badly the United States responded to Hurricane Katrina -- and then consider that for the U.S. to suffer something equivalent to the Borg Invasion, it would have to lose over 43 million people. That's roughly equivalent to the deaths of every single man, woman, and child in the states of California, Oregon, Wyoming, and New Mexico.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Bill,

I also want to congratulate you on a fine read.
Thank you. :)

My whole point in general is: I understand the premise of the book. The Borg attack was on such a scale that the whole Federation has been thrown into disorder. But it seems like the whole book makes everything the Federation is doing some ad hoc seat of the pants response one new trouble issue at a time. Even governments today have plans and resources available for civil emergencies and disasters on a large scale, and private agencies have resources as well. Doesn't the Federation or Starfleet?
Governments today have plans and resources for predictable emergencies and disasters. And even plans for predictable events, like Hurricane Katrina, can to easily fall apart. The complete annihilation of hundreds of planets, all in a period of only six hours, is really not something that the Federation could have been expected to plan for -- all the Borg "incidents" up to that point had involved single cubes attacking one planet at a time. And if the Federation had planned for it, they surely would have anticipated using Starfleet, which is not in such great shape at the moment.

(And in fairness, you have Deneva, which had suffered a planetwide invasion a century earlier, and which did have its plan for an evacuation.)

1. At some time in the past, I thought Starfleet or the Federation had some kind of "colonial office"
Maybe in the TOS era, but we really didn't see a whole lot of new colonization in the TNG era.

I guess as I look at the Federation, it is taking up a lot of space, and even in Picard's time has all the Federation been mapped? In short, was there any thought about having a Federation solution to at least some of this chaos at least on some level that is "off the shelf."
Well, there was the plan to build atmospheric domes, which was underway at the beginning of A Singular Destiny. But it takes more to build a colony than just real estate. Surely, there are other planets out there, but imagine how much worse off the iy'Dewra'ni camp would had been, planted on a deserted planet, light-years from anywhere, without even the grudging support of a native government.

2. On the same line, it is interesting that only at the end of the book does the Enterprise start looking for habitable colony worlds. Wouldn't this process have started by science vessels, or even older ships "de-mothballed" for the purpose?
Perhaps, but this wasn't a book about science vessels and what they were doing while the Enterprise was busy, y'know, looking for survivors. Keep in mind, too, that the majority of the book takes place over only a few days, and there's about a two month jump to the epilogue, during which we don't know what the Enterprise was doing, let alone any science vessels or other ships Starfleet might have had saved for a rainy day.

3. I am curious, one solution to the problems of overcrowded shipping might be for the Federation to collect some large number of merchant vessels, like passenger liners, for example, take them over and use them as people transport to balance out populations?
Might be, and is: I have civilian ships carrying refugees from Pacifica to Ingraham B, and one of the key plotlines of Keith's book was about a civilian Andorian ship, not to mention the opening vignette about another civilian freighter.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^On the subject of preparedness for unexpected disasters, I've read that there are people in the US government, and probably others, whose job is to devise preparedness plans for every imaginable contingency, from global thermonuclear war to alien invasion. The main character of the TV series Threshold was a government consultant whose job was to come up with plans for extreme scenarios, so that when an alien infiltration actually did begin, the government already had a plan in place for addressing it. And of course that owed a lot to The Andromeda Strain before it.

Now, maybe the Federation is just less paranoid than we are, but still, given the known existence of the Borg threat and the devastation the Borg were able to wreak with just one cube -- not to mention how close the Dominion came to bringing the Federation down -- I would think that the UFP government and Starfleet Command would've definitely done some contingency planning for the possibility of a large-scale Borg invasion, or the wholesale devastation of Federation worlds by other means. Of course, actually executing such a plan wouldn't be a simple matter, but they certainly should've thought about what to do in the event of such a crisis -- which was really very foreseeable given what was known about the power of the Borg. I can certainly imagine Koll Azernal making sure that the Zife administration had plans in place for such a contingency. If the Bacco administration allowed those plans to get lost in the shuffle or disregarded them as the products of a paranoid regime, I can imagine a lot of questions would now be getting raised about that administration's preparedness.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^On the subject of preparedness for unexpected disasters, I've read that there are people in the US government, and probably others, whose job is to devise preparedness plans for every imaginable contingency, from global thermonuclear war to alien invasion. The main character of the TV series Threshold was a government consultant whose job was to come up with plans for extreme scenarios, so that when an alien infiltration actually did begin, the government already had a plan in place for addressing it. And of course that owed a lot to The Andromeda Strain before it.

Now, maybe the Federation is just less paranoid than we are, but still, given the known existence of the Borg threat and the devastation the Borg were able to wreak with just one cube -- not to mention how close the Dominion came to bringing the Federation down -- I would think that the UFP government and Starfleet Command would've definitely done some contingency planning for the possibility of a large-scale Borg invasion, or the wholesale devastation of Federation worlds by other means. Of course, actually executing such a plan wouldn't be a simple matter, but they certainly should've thought about what to do in the event of such a crisis -- which was really very foreseeable given what was known about the power of the Borg. I can certainly imagine Koll Azernal making sure that the Zife administration had plans in place for such a contingency. If the Bacco administration allowed those plans to get lost in the shuffle or disregarded them as the products of a paranoid regime, I can imagine a lot of questions would now be getting raised about that administration's preparedness.

There was a sequence in either Book II or Book III of Destiny in which Admiral Akaar reluctantly admits to President Bacco that Starfleet simply had no plans for how to deal with a Borg invasion sufficiently large to hit hundreds of planets simultaneously across all of local space. Apparently the resources necessary were so vast, and the Borg behavior prior so limited, that the thought had never occurred to anyone.

ETA:

And, really, I would argue that that's fair enough, because at a certain point planning for something becomes an exercise in futility. If the Borg were committed to the Federation's destruction, then the Federation was doomed, period. Only something else intervening could stop that. In a lot of ways, planning for an invasion on that scale would be like trying to plan to go to war with the Q -- at a certain point, if something like that happens, your side is doomed no matter what you do, and it becomes a waste to even bother trying to plan for it.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Maybe that's the downside of a civilization as deeply rooted in optimism as the Federation -- they have trouble contemplating the worst possible scenarios.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I enjoyed this novel more than almost any of the others I've read. I loved that we got a look inside the Federation after all of the destruction wrought by multiple conflicts. Also was very glad to see some in-depth character development (I burn out very quickly on action/adventure only books). Two of the interesting aspects of this novel for me were: (1) the apt question of how will Picard face a universe without Borg - his raison d'etre has morphed into Caeliar, and (2) Beverly showing inner strength and bringing Picard back on track when he starts to waver in the face of some of the difficulties the universe feeds him. (One gets the feeling that the universe has it out for him sometimes.) It's a really well done novel that weaves together some of the many threads that I sometimes had difficulty following through the Destiny series.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Maybe that's the downside of a civilization as deeply rooted in optimism as the Federation -- they have trouble contemplating the worst possible scenarios.

I dont know, I think it's more that the Federation's worse case scenario was probably for something like a fleet of Borg ships in the hundreds invading and deploying in particular directions that could still be intercepted and engaged, as opposed to the multiple thousands of ships attacking in all directions that the Borg chose to deploy.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I disagree that the Federation or Starfleet had no plan to counter their wholesale destruction, but plans are based on numbers, and they may have had a plan for 1000 cubes, even 2,500 cubes...but 7000 is not an invasion scenario, it's a worst case scenario in which the enemy decides that you are going to be destroyed. No plan survives intact after the first battle with the enemy, no matter how prepared you are.

There is simply no way that Starfleet could have been victorious without the Caeliar. It would have been a fight to the death. The Klingons would been exterminated, the Federation would continue to fight until they could fight no more and then probably find a way to run in the hopes of rebuilding civilisation and fighting back another day (like nuBSG and the Cylons). The Romulans would have likely been next and then everybody else.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Maybe that's the downside of a civilization as deeply rooted in optimism as the Federation -- they have trouble contemplating the worst possible scenarios.
Except the Klingons and Romulans didn't fare all too well, either.

The thing is, in order to call any scenario the "worst possible," that kind of implies that there are no possible countermeasures or contingencies.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I disagree that the Federation or Starfleet had no plan to counter their wholesale destruction,

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. It is a fact.

From page 47 of Destiny, Book III: Lost Souls:

It was too vast a number for Bacco to grasp. Thirty billion was too large even to be a statistic; it was an abstraction of death writ on a cosmic scale. "Can Starfleet muster enough ships to intercept the Borg armada?"

"It is not that simple, Madam President," Akaar said. "There are no isolated thrusts of enemy forces to intercept. The Borg have dispersed on thousands of vectors across known space. We had organized Starfleet's defenses to shield the core systems. Unfortunately, the Borg have committed enough ships to attack all our worlds at once." He cast his eyes downward. "I regret to say we have no defensive plans for that scenario."

And, really, how could they have a plan for that? They had no reason to think that that many Borg ships could be committed to the destruction of the Alpha Quadrant, even if they thought that that many Borg had existed. And even if they did -- there simply is no way to counter such an invasion. The resources do not exist. Asking the Federation to develop a plan, any plan (other than "run away") in response to the destruction of all of known space is like asking the United States Army to develop a plan to defeat God.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Okay, there you go. There's a difference between "no defensive plans" and "no plans." Akaar was saying that Starfleet would be incapable of mustering a defense on such a scale. That's not the same thing as saying that nobody ever contemplated the possibility. The Federation government probably did have some contingency plans for an event that brought about the downfall of the Federation; its just that those plans would've been along the lines of "Pack up the essentials, get as far away as you can as fast as you can, and try to rebuild somewhere else." Not a defensive plan, not an attack plan, more of a last-ditch escape plan.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Okay, there you go. There's a difference between "no defensive plans" and "no plans." Akaar was saying that Starfleet would be incapable of mustering a defense on such a scale. That's not the same thing as saying that nobody ever contemplated the possibility. The Federation government probably did have some contingency plans for an event that brought about the downfall of the Federation; its just that those plans would've been along the lines of "Pack up the essentials, get as far away as you can as fast as you can, and try to rebuild somewhere else." Not a defensive plan, not an attack plan, more of a last-ditch escape plan.

Fair enough -- I took it for granted that we were talking about defensive plans rather than last-ditch escape plans.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

The resources do not exist. Asking the Federation to develop a plan, any plan (other than "run away") in response to the destruction of all of known space is like asking the United States Army to develop a plan to defeat God.

You don't send in the Army to do that, you send in the MARINES. Everyone knows that. :techman:
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

The resources do not exist. Asking the Federation to develop a plan, any plan (other than "run away") in response to the destruction of all of known space is like asking the United States Army to develop a plan to defeat God.

You don't send in the Army to do that, you send in the MARINES. Everyone knows that. :techman:

Pffft. Give me an aircraft carrier any day of the week. :devil:
 
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