So Scotty invented transwarp beaming?
- Thread starter EJA
- Start date
"essentially the same thing" and "the same thing" are not the same.
Besides, these are fictional pieces of technology that have little to no basis in reality. To even claim that they are the same or different is ludicrous because there is no way to legitimately argue the matter either way.
It could very well be that the TNG crew used some of Scotty's theories and equations to make it happen. The amount of risk with both kinds of beaming sound similar, too. Also, according to Memory Alpha, the Federation researched the technology prior to the events of the episode but abandoned it due to risk and energy cost -- which could mean that the research stemmed from Scotty's ideas as well.
On the flip side, I recall the Maquis crew in Voyager having a sneaky-but-tested opposite of transwarp beaming -- being able to beam from a ship in warp to a stationary location.
Could this have been linked with the incident with Admiral Archer's dog?
No, they're not "essentially the same thing".
Subspace beaming was used in "Bloodlines" to transport a probe a great distance, but not to transport it onto another ship traveling at warp -- the "transwarp" part represents an additional level of complexity to the formula. Differences between transporter methods/techniques were also discussed in this thread, back in July.
Edit:
Per dialogue in the movie:
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I also found this tidbit here:
Transporter Theory
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Transporter_Theory
It's a class taught at the Academy and mentioned in TNG's Realm of Fear. According to the instructor Dr. Olafson, beaming can include "the body being converted into billions of kiloquads of data, zipping through subspace."
The instructor never mentions who originated that idea, but that sounds a lot like Scotty's method. It was also this idea that caused Barclay to develop his phobia of transporters. Realm of Fear predates Bloodlines by one season.
Transporter Theory
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Transporter_Theory
It's a class taught at the Academy and mentioned in TNG's Realm of Fear. According to the instructor Dr. Olafson, beaming can include "the body being converted into billions of kiloquads of data, zipping through subspace."
The instructor never mentions who originated that idea, but that sounds a lot like Scotty's method. It was also this idea that caused Barclay to develop his phobia of transporters. Realm of Fear predates Bloodlines by one season.
Additionally, let's also remember that new theories are figured out, laws are broken, limits are pushed over time, especially in science and most especially in Trek. It seems to be a common staple in Trek that if a character says something's impossible, it'll be achieved by the end of the episode or movie. Warp 9 by a human vessel in Enterprise is impossible, but it certainly happens in Kirk's time, for example.
It's from "A Matter of Honor" (TNG). That's the range they needed to get Riker back onto the Enterprise.
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It's 40,000.
TNG: A Matter of Honor.
To beam Riker off the Klingon Bird of Prey, the distance between the Enterprise and the BoP needed to be 40,000 km max.
Next attempted excuse for this:
"But it's an alternate timeline, so Scotty may have come up with that."
Q:
"So how did Spock Prime know about it?"
A:
"Scotty Prime also came up with it, but later, after TNG: Relics, in the 24th century."
Q:
"So how possibly could Scotty Alternate come up with something 30-40 years (and actually more than 100 years) earlier than Scotty Prime? Did Nero's appearance make him twice as smart or what?"
A:
"Maybe they found advanced wreckage from the Narada and that made it possible."
Q:
"So why didn't Starfleet know anything about the Narada and ran directly into a trap above Vulcan?"
TNG: A Matter of Honor.
To beam Riker off the Klingon Bird of Prey, the distance between the Enterprise and the BoP needed to be 40,000 km max.
Next attempted excuse for this:
"But it's an alternate timeline, so Scotty may have come up with that."
Q:
"So how did Spock Prime know about it?"
A:
"Scotty Prime also came up with it, but later, after TNG: Relics, in the 24th century."
Q:
"So how possibly could Scotty Alternate come up with something 30-40 years (and actually more than 100 years) earlier than Scotty Prime? Did Nero's appearance make him twice as smart or what?"
A:
"Maybe they found advanced wreckage from the Narada and that made it possible."
Q:
"So why didn't Starfleet know anything about the Narada and ran directly into a trap above Vulcan?"
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Actually, it really was Spock Prime who told him.
It seems that nuScotty was on the path to figuring out but was still a ways off when we meet him in the movie.
For all we know, without Spock Prime, it would have taken nuScotty just as long as Scotty Prime to figure out it. For some of history's most storied minds, it sometimes takes them decades to fully perfect a finding.
^^ Yep. If you notice, Spock Prime said that Scotty "Postulated' the Transwarp Beaming theory. Postulate is a way of asserting or perhaps hypothosising. So basically Scotty was saying (or postulating) it was possible, but hadn't found the right formula yet, and may not have in his original timeline.
So by the time Spock Prime came around... the formula was perfected (possibly even by post-Relics Scotty himself with the help of advancements in technology) and thus Spock gave it back to him in the new timeline.
How about them apples?
On a sorta related note, the only thing I didn't like about that scene when we meet Scotty is that Spock Prime talks to Scotty as though he had heard of him but never met him. As though he was a stranger.
So by the time Spock Prime came around... the formula was perfected (possibly even by post-Relics Scotty himself with the help of advancements in technology) and thus Spock gave it back to him in the new timeline.
How about them apples?
On a sorta related note, the only thing I didn't like about that scene when we meet Scotty is that Spock Prime talks to Scotty as though he had heard of him but never met him. As though he was a stranger.
Yeah, good point on the use of the word "postulating." NuScotty's transwarp beaming was used four times, but he missed 3 times (each time nearly getting the targets killed), which perhaps shows that nuScotty still has a long way to go with targeting and safety, so it still ain't perfect.
If we want to go even more Trekkie about this, as was said by the TNG crew in Bloodlines, beaming across huge distances was dangerous to the point that the Federation stopped testing it. When the Maquis did the opposite-beaming, it was considered an unorthodox guerrilla tactic, which lends more credence to the dangers of such beaming.
Of course, that's all just fanboyish and self-indulgent speculation. But I have Passion Fruit Italian Ice by my side on a wonderfully pleasant late summer day. I've got all the time in the world
Tried it four times? I only remember the once, beaming NuKirk and NuScotty to the NuEnterprise. What were the other three?
Perhaps getting Kirk and Spock to Nero's ship...then getting them off Nero's ship.
And Porthos (mentioned; happened off-screen).
I don't know...I'm just postulating here.
1. NuKirk to Engineering: target hit
2. NuScotty to Engineering: target missed, nearly killed by goofy water trap
3 & 4. Kirk and Spock to lower regions of Narada: target missed, beamed to the other side of the ship, in front of the crew and thereby spoiling the plan of surprise. And it's a big ship. Messy gunfight ensues, heroes nearly killed several times over.
Getting off the ship was probably done with just normal transporters since the Enterprise came to the rescue. I didn't count Porthos b/c that happened before Spock Prime could lend a hand.
Not to mention the fact that starships in orbit of a planet are regularly able to beam people back and forth. That would be traversing WAY more than a measly 100 miles.
"Normal" transporters, funny you should say that. Because I haven't seen them changing any hardware, they just talked about a "formula". So the transmitters for the beam, that sends your particles across the universe, were already designed to be powerful enough to beam something that far, the targeting scanners that tell you were you actually are beaming to, were powerful enough. Yet nobody but Scotty believed it was possible to beam that far.
The distance from Titan to Earth is between 1,241,663,400 km and 1,510,939,800 km, that's almost 40,000 times (!!) the maximum distance stated in TNG.
Why would any transporter system be equipped to target and beam to such distant places when they think it's impossible to do that?
And the reason why Scotty beamed them onto the bridge instead of a cargo bay was not because the targeting scanners were not working properly, it was because he mis-interpreted the deck layout of the Narada.
But I forgot what was the reason why they didn't beam Pike, the only human aboard a ship full of Romulans, simply away onto the Enterprise?
*double post*
