Alternate History Outside Europe/U.S.?

[Shawnster]

Thomas Harlan writes an interesting alternate history Sci-Fi series collectively titled "In the Time of the Sixth Sun" where the Aztec and Nippon (Japanese) empires together became the dominant force (the Mexica Empire), and eventually became a new interstellar empire in a universe with of lots of ancient and powerful races. The main character is a woman archeologist investigating artifacts on ancient worlds.

I think the books are quite interesting and well recommended:
- "Wasteland of Flint"
- "House of Reeds"
- "Land of the Dead" (just came out - I have not read it yet)

If I remember right, one of the things which causes his history to diverge from ours is that Christianity remains a small cult, so eventually the Aztec conquer Europe instead of the other way around. But that is just my simplistic recollection. Note that the books do not dwell on this history much - the setting is in the future.

THANK YOU SIR!!! I've been wracking my brain FOR YEARS trying to remember this series. I flipped through one of these books a long time ago at a bookstore. I thought "hmmm, interesting. I should pick this up sometime when I have money." Then never could remember or find it again.

 

[Trent Roman]

There is plenty of evidence, most notably that the progression of tool culminating in the Clovis spear point does not correspond to Asian tools, it does however correspond to European tools.

Similarities between Solutrean and Clovis toolsets are just that: similarities. They are not strong enough to merit a lineage between them, occur a different points in the timeline, and could just as easily have arisen independently from the similar climatic and megafauna-hunting needs. When looking at biological issues, the biological evidence ought, I think, take precedence, and our best, most recent evidence does not support an ethnic European ancestry. The only workaround that I see would be if Solutrean migrants had been wiped out rather than incorporated into the Berengian migrant population, but their toolset was adopted by their replacements. Although I'm not sure how that would account for widespread distribution, given that Clovis per se only lasted a few hundred years.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[3D Master]

There is plenty of evidence, most notably that the progression of tool culminating in the Clovis spear point does not correspond to Asian tools, it does however correspond to European tools.

Similarities between Solutrean and Clovis toolsets are just that: similarities. They are not strong enough to merit a lineage between them, occur a different points in the timeline, and could just as easily have arisen independently from the similar climatic and megafauna-hunting needs.

Actually, they ARE similar enough to merit lineage, most notably the fact there is a clear lineage of improvements ultimately culminating in the Clovis spear point, starting with a form that is near, if not entirely identical to the European tools.

And in the same way, these tools, show NO similarities to the Asian tools. If they came from Asia, the oldest tools would have been brought from Asia, and so they would resemble Asian tools. They don't.

When looking at biological issues, the biological evidence ought, I think, take precedence, and our best, most recent evidence does not support an ethnic European ancestry.

No, I disagree. It's obvious that bioligical evidence can easily be misinterpreted, there's nothing to say those going against the European ancestry aren't making another mistake, especially since it contradicts the archeological evidence. The archeological evidence and European biological evidence, however, fit perfectly together.

The only workaround that I see would be if Solutrean migrants had been wiped out rather than incorporated into the Berengian migrant population, but their toolset was adopted by their replacements.

Which doesn't make any sense. There are people already settled, and would thus have superior numbers to the invaders AND superior weapons (or the invaders wouldn't have started using them instead of their own), result being if war breaks out, the invaders perish, the originals survive.

 

[Mistral]

Thomas Harlan writes an interesting alternate history Sci-Fi series collectively titled "In the Time of the Sixth Sun" where the Aztec and Nippon (Japanese) empires together became the dominant force (the Mexica Empire), and eventually became a new interstellar empire in a universe with of lots of ancient and powerful races. The main character is a woman archeologist investigating artifacts on ancient worlds.

I think the books are quite interesting and well recommended:
- "Wasteland of Flint"
- "House of Reeds"
- "Land of the Dead" (just came out - I have not read it yet)

If I remember right, one of the things which causes his history to diverge from ours is that Christianity remains a small cult, so eventually the Aztec conquer Europe instead of the other way around. But that is just my simplistic recollection. Note that the books do not dwell on this history much - the setting is in the future.

THANK YOU SIR!!! I've been wracking my brain FOR YEARS trying to remember this series. I flipped through one of these books a long time ago at a bookstore. I thought "hmmm, interesting. I should pick this up sometime when I have money." Then never could remember or find it again.

I started the story and got...bored. But to each their own.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Check out the "Hammer and the Cross" trilogy by Harry Harrison, in which, basically, the Vikings conquer Europe and spread the Norse religion across the globe.

On your recommendation, I just finished the first book, The Hammer and the Cross.

I generally liked it. In places, the writing was very compelling. In a few places, the writing was a bit boring. (I ascribed the former to Tom Shippey, the latter to Harry Harrison.)

The odd thing about reading the book is that it felt a lot like reading a novel of someone's Age of Empires II random map game. There was the research, the base-building, the resource gathering, and finally the battles. And seeing the Vikings get late-medieval siege and ranged weapons -- and the uses to which they put them -- was interesting.

I assume the POD was not Shef personally, but rather the formation of The Way, an organized Norse religion, a hundred years or so before the book begins.

I'm not sure if I'll read the next two, as they get into more fantastic territory. Nonetheless, I liked The Hammer and the Cross.

 

[Skywalker]

I know there's a somewhat popular point of divergence out there in which the Manhattan Project was a failure and the atomic bomb was never developed, and so the United States then had to enact Operation Downfall (the proposed invasion of Japan, which would have led to massive casualties on both sides). Meanwhile, the Soviet Union finally joined in the war against Japan in August 1945, eventually taking the Kuril Islands in the process, and there were plans for them to invade the island of Hokkaido, as well (if I remember correctly).

What I'm curious about is if anyone's ever taken that idea even further. If both the United States and the Soviet Union had invaded Japan (the USA from the south and the USSR from the north) and ended the war that way, would we then have seen a situation in Japan similar to Korea, where the country was divided between a pro-Soviet north and a pro-American south? And how would that have affected the Cold War?

 

[pookha]

thomas harlan's series that starts off with wasteland of flint.

in it's back ground the chinese invasion of japan suceeced.
some of the japanese flee west and run into the aztecs .
out of this arises an empire that takes on a lot of the bushido qualities of japan. some of the qualities of the aztecs but they also use science.
they eventually conquer the rest of the earth and at the time of the series are out in space.

you gradually get the background as you read the books.

 

[clint g]

I know there's a somewhat popular point of divergence out there in which the Manhattan Project was a failure and the atomic bomb was never developed, and so the United States then had to enact Operation Downfall (the proposed invasion of Japan, which would have led to massive casualties on both sides). Meanwhile, the Soviet Union finally joined in the war against Japan in August 1945, eventually taking the Kuril Islands in the process, and there were plans for them to invade the island of Hokkaido, as well (if I remember correctly).

What I'm curious about is if anyone's ever taken that idea even further. If both the United States and the Soviet Union had invaded Japan (the USA from the south and the USSR from the north) and ended the war that way, would we then have seen a situation in Japan similar to Korea, where the country was divided between a pro-Soviet north and a pro-American south? And how would that have affected the Cold War?

Theres a sci-fi anime called The Place Promised in Our Early Days that loosely tackles that idea. Pretty much what happens is Japan gets split into a North Korea/South Korea type thing. It wasn't the focus of the story as it mostly served as a backdrop for the overall story but it was still pretty cool

 

[Australis]

Surprised no one's mentioned the Tales of the Otori by Lian Hearn. I haven't read them, but they've been highly praised.

As far as I can tell, they're set in al alternate Japan, and follow a young warrior named Takeo in his struggles to avenge an adoptive father, escape the legacy of his biological father, and pursue the love of his life in the midst of an enormous power struggle involving dozens of clan lords and thousands of warriors.

The books are
Across The Nightingale Floor
Grass For His Pillow
Briliance of the Moon.

There's also a sequel, The Harsh Cry of the Heron, and a prequel, Heaven's Net Is Wide.

 

[Skywalker]

Surprised no one's mentioned the Tales of the Otori by Lian Hearn. I haven't read them, but they've been highly praised.

I've seen those in the book store, but I thought they were set in a pseudo-Japan that wasn't actually Japan, not in an alternate Japan. I haven't actually read them myself, so I don't actually know.

 

[Australis]

You may be right. Mind you, if it looks like Japan and feels like Japan. ALl I know for sure is they've received a lot of praise.

 

[Trent Roman]

^ A quick check confirms that Lian Hearn's books are fantasy based on feudal Japan. Reminds me of Michael Stackpole's Age of Discovery trilogy, in which a fantasy kingdom very strongly based on Ming China (but with fantasy elements like magic and lizard-people) encounters, through explorations across an easternly ocean, a new land with people based very strongly on Mesoamerican cultures.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Skywalker]

^ A quick check confirms that Lian Hearn's books are fantasy based on feudal Japan. Reminds me of Michael Stackpole's Age of Discovery trilogy, in which a fantasy kingdom very strongly based on Ming China (but with fantasy elements like magic and lizard-people) encounters, through explorations across an easternly ocean, a new land with people based very strongly on Mesoamerican cultures.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

I remember that. I read the first book, A Secret Atlas, but I didn't like it all that much. I've had a hard time getting into Stackpole's non-licensed work.