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Single species crews on Federation starships

Personally, I kind of think where a ship gets its crew from plays a lot in its complement mix. Regardless of where they're originally built, some ships departing from an Earth facility may wind up with entirely Human crews, while others leaving from a Vulcan shipyard may wind up with entirely Vulcan crews. The same may be true from ships leaving Andorian or Tellarite facilities. There may not be an actual policy for single species crews in Starfleet, but sometimes they just simply happen and it could be more rare than common, IMO...
 
Personally, I kind of think where a ship gets its crew from plays a lot in its complement mix. Regardless of where they're originally built, some ships departing from an Earth facility may wind up with entirely Human crews, while others leaving from a Vulcan shipyard may wind up with entirely Vulcan crews. The same may be true from ships leaving Andorian or Tellarite facilities. There may not be an actual policy for single species crews in Starfleet, but sometimes they just simply happen and it could be more rare than common, IMO...

Ah but people from all over and of all races go to the Acadamy on Earth. Despite this, we see relatively few aliens at the Acadamy. Racist I tells ee.
 
I'm really sorry to quibble, but, again, what do you mean by "equal"? You made good points above with your complaints about how female characters have been used in recent Trek. But why do you keep talking about "women being/not being equal"? It takes two to be equal. One sex alone cannot be made "equal". You seem to have men as some sort of unchanging ideal and are then saying the only way to achieve equality is to make women like that. Keep in mind gender is a complicated issue. There are many, many ways to achieve equality, using the word to signify one particular view of gender only is rather unwise. I for one think both goalposts need to be moved, not just the one, which seems to be what you're suggesting.

I'm suggesting that we should see equal numbers of actors and actresses on screen in every speaking and non-speaking role - so 50/50 security, captains, admiralty, first officers etc. I'm not suggesting that Klingons or Ferengi must treat their women equally but races who espouse equality should display it.

I do have a few issues with the way women's sex is used rather too often as part of the plot for example when the Romulan commander tries to pull Shinzon in Nemesis. Wtf was that meant to be about? It totally demeaned an otherwise efficient and ambitious military character as someone who would 'take one for the team' if it would secure her a promotion. Outrageous! :rolleyes: However, if more women feature regularly, those kinds of aberrant scenes probably wont be so noticeable.
 
I'm really sorry to quibble, but, again, what do you mean by "equal"? You made good points above with your complaints about how female characters have been used in recent Trek. But why do you keep talking about "women being/not being equal"? It takes two to be equal. One sex alone cannot be made "equal". You seem to have men as some sort of unchanging ideal and are then saying the only way to achieve equality is to make women like that. Keep in mind gender is a complicated issue. There are many, many ways to achieve equality, using the word to signify one particular view of gender only is rather unwise. I for one think both goalposts need to be moved, not just the one, which seems to be what you're suggesting.

I'm suggesting that we should see equal numbers of actors and actresses on screen in every speaking and non-speaking role - so 50/50 security, captains, admiralty, first officers etc. I'm not suggesting that Klingons or Ferengi must treat their women equally but races who espouse equality should display it.

I do have a few issues with the way women's sex is used rather too often as part of the plot for example when the Romulan commander tries to pull Shinzon in Nemesis. Wtf was that meant to be about? It totally demeaned an otherwise efficient and ambitious military character as someone who would 'take one for the team' if it would secure her a promotion. Outrageous! :rolleyes: However, if more women feature regularly, those kinds of aberrant scenes probably wont be so noticeable.

Good answer! Thanks for clarifying. I agree entirely, particularly with the Donatra scene. :)
 
Ah but people from all over and of all races go to the Acadamy on Earth. Despite this, we see relatively few aliens at the Acadamy. Racist I tells ee.

Starfleet Academy has other campuses on other worlds. The San Francisco one is just the main campus. And since it's on Earth it makes sense that most cadets would be humans.
 
I might not any brief bridge appearences with all humans, just means it's cheaper than putting make-up and prothetic molds on an extra.

Klingons are at peace with hte Federation, yet Worf is the only known Klingon serving in Starfleet. Just because we don't see ship manned mainly by one or multiple non human races, doesn't make Starfleet rascists. Not every race, while indeed signing and becoming part of the Federation, wants to join as officers.
 
Maybe gender irrelevant would be better than equal. In the movie Alien the charactor Ripply was written for a man, cast with a woman, but no changes were made to the script.
 
With regard to the original series, at least, and pretending that there were no budget limitations, I always thought that the Federation was supposed to be allegorical for the UN. Ships in the fleet were all on the same side but came from different nations. Vulcans had their ships, Andorians had theirs, and so on.
 
With all the human looking aliens in TOS, many of the crewmen we saw could have been aliens.
 
With regard to the original series, at least, and pretending that there were no budget limitations, I always thought that the Federation was supposed to be allegorical for the UN. Ships in the fleet were all on the same side but came from different nations. Vulcans had their ships, Andorians had theirs, and so on.

Yeah that's how I see it too. Trek's problem has been its focus on Starfleet as the be all and end all of the Federation fleet. The UN is a very good analogy, where native forces work in units, cooperating with forces from other nations. Starfleet would be a co-ordinating organisation, taking on short term projects like emergency aid until a proper Federation unit, likely made up mostly of one species, takes over for the longer haul.

In fact the background to Phase II had the arcturians as providers of shock troops for Federation ground forces because they could be cloned to order. Scarily reminiscent of the Dominion's attitude to troops. It's a shame that this more pragmatic, less idealised, Federation wasn't developed much until the latter part of DS9.
 
Ah but people from all over and of all races go to the Acadamy on Earth. Despite this, we see relatively few aliens at the Acadamy. Racist I tells ee.

Starfleet Academy has other campuses on other worlds. The San Francisco one is just the main campus. And since it's on Earth it makes sense that most cadets would be humans.

So Earth is a purist nation that doesn't allow anybody from the hundreds of Federation worlds to settle on its shores? Or Earth prefers to ship humans like Wesley dozens of light years back to Earth in preference to letting him study elsewhere with those damn blue skins? Still, no other Acadamy has ever been mentioned as far as I can recall.

I'm just messing with you. This isn't a case of 'a wizard did it' it's a case of 'the budget did it.' Trying to justify it in universe really does just make Starfleet look very racist no matter how you slice it. :rommie:
 
Maybe gender irrelevant would be better than equal. In the movie Alien the charactor Ripply was written for a man, cast with a woman, but no changes were made to the script.

:eek: Whoops missed this reply first time round! Essentially gender irrelevant is how I would want to see them cast their characters. Unless they want the character to be a love interest for a main character and they don't want every character to be multi-sexual! I don't know why they can't just flip a coin when it comes down to casting.

Lets also not forget the impact that a backward thinking director can have (like the infamous scene where two actresses, both of whom have fencing experience, were required on the day of shooting to use clay pots in a fight scene while the actors, some of whom had NO fencing exerience, got to play with swords).
 
So Earth is a purist nation that doesn't allow anybody from the hundreds of Federation worlds to settle on its shores? Or Earth prefers to ship humans like Wesley dozens of light years back to Earth in preference to letting him study elsewhere with those damn blue skins? Still, no other Acadamy has ever been mentioned as far as I can recall.

I'm just messing with you. This isn't a case of 'a wizard did it' it's a case of 'the budget did it.' Trying to justify it in universe really does just make Starfleet look very racist no matter how you slice it. :rommie:

Ah, but trying to explain it in universe is where all the fun is. ;)
There were plenty aliens on Earth. I suppose San Francisco is where Earthers go (since it's closest by) as well as where the best and brightest from across the Federation go (since it is the central facility). Actually, Wesley took his entrance exam on some colony, so the Academy does seem to have other facilities (and some were mentioned on personel files in one TNG episode, if you look really, really closely).
 
If there's segregation along racial/special lines, one is tempted to ask who is getting wronged by this...

Is it humans (or Vulcans), who have been shown or stated to serve on almost racially pure vessels? After all, said vessels are typically shown to be captained by nonhumans (nonVulcans, as with the Hera), save for a few special cases that include the hero ships. One could consider it wronging when a racial/special group has to obey an alien's orders. Although one could also consider it wronging when said group sees something wrong in such a setup. Or then one could decide that racially mixed ships are the ones whose crews are being wronged, because said crews would prefer to be pure (consist of families, childhood friends and the like), but are not allowed to.

More probably such second-guessing is simply out of vogue in the 23rd-24th century, and anybody seeing racist/specieist motivations behind the arrangements is dismissed as a pitiable, out-of-date racist/specieist him- or herself...

Actually, Wesley took his entrance exam on some colony, so the Academy does seem to have other facilities

For entry exams, yes - but the colony would not have provided any of the actual training.

and some were mentioned on personel files in one TNG episode, if you look really, really closely

"Eye of the Beholder" - which is a bit of a special case, because 90% of it happens in a dream. And that includes the scenes where personnel files are glimpsed...

If we accept these personnel files as real, we then have to ask whether the simple mention of "Starfleet Academy Beta Aurigae" or "Starfleet Academy San Francisco" refers to a location of graduation, or to a location of enrolment. Wesley's record might have read "Starfleet Academy Relva V" as he enrolled at that location, even if all his studies took place at San Francisco...

Timo Saloniemi
 
and some were mentioned on personel files in one TNG episode, if you look really, really closely
"Eye of the Beholder" - which is a bit of a special case, because 90% of it happens in a dream. And that includes the scenes where personnel files are glimpsed...

Sure, though I'm not sure why something like that would be a part of the halucination if it wasn't real on it's own. The better counterargument is that it's just a background graphic, and knowing how many silly things are on these, it's a question should we take them seriously.

If we accept these personnel files as real, we then have to ask whether the simple mention of "Starfleet Academy Beta Aurigae" or "Starfleet Academy San Francisco" refers to a location of graduation, or to a location of enrolment. Wesley's record might have read "Starfleet Academy Relva V" as he enrolled at that location, even if all his studies took place at San Francisco...
Certainly possible, though location of gradaution seems to me more important than location of enrolment and thus more likely to end on a personel file. Anyway, I'm just thinking it would be impossible to train enough people at just one Academy facility, so there simply have to be other umentioned ones.
 
I like the idea that you have different Academy campuses on different worlds. The Earth campus is maybe the largest and best known one. After all, when you consider the size of universities on Earth, I don't see how you could have one campus serving the entire Federation. If that's the case, then you have "feeder campuses" that lead to cadets from specific campuses serving on specific ships.
 
We certainly know that engineers, scientists and medical doctors can do their academic training elsewhere (Troi, Spock, McCoy etc). So the Acadamy can also be used just for starfleet officer training rather than the whole 4 years.
 
Love the idea that the many crew members in TOS walking the corridors of the E - going god knows where - could of been aliens! Most of the aliens depicted were human in appearance. Nicely takes care of never seeing any gays on the show too.
 
...location of gradaution seems to me more important than location of enrolment and thus more likely to end on a personel file.

Unless there only was one possible location of graduation, in which case one could list information of secondary worth such as location of enrolment. :vulcan:

Anyway, I'm just thinking it would be impossible to train enough people at just one Academy facility

But for all we know, the entire city of San Francisco is this one facility, processing hundreds of thousands if not millions of students at a time. Today, there are several universities with a similar number of attendees, even if they don't have a single physical campus.

The only real problems with this assumption are that our heroes would be a tad too messianic if they all were among the top ten graduates of their thousands-strong course (we know Riker was the eighth in his class, but happily enough we don't seem to know similar things about the others so he could be a unique Wunderkind) - and that something strange would be going on if they always knew the other graduates they stumble onto while working in deep space (but generally speaking, they don't know personally the skipper of the random starship they meet).

We certainly know that engineers, scientists and medical doctors can do their academic training elsewhere (Troi, Spock, McCoy etc).

Do we? We only ever hear that Troi attended the University of Betazed; the other two have never clearly been mentioned as having studied outside Starfleet Academy. Granted, schools outside SFA are known to exist. But if you speculate that Starfleet doctors get their medical training outside SFA, there's no good proof for it yet. We have no indication that Crusher, Pulaski or Bashir studied outside SFA; we hear that McCoy was present at Ole Miss at one point, but whether as a student or perhaps as a lecturer is left unmentioned.

Love the idea that the many crew members in TOS walking the corridors of the E - going god knows where - could of been aliens! Most of the aliens depicted were human in appearance. Nicely takes care of never seeing any gays on the show too.

It would have been nice to see a few more "alien humans" roaming the corridors... In TOS, we had humans who were "alien" in that they were mad scientists or luddite farmers, but there could be more variety than that. A few religious ferverts, a couple of people who hold their animal or machine companions in high esteem, folks who remove their digestive tracts and replace them with ethically acceptable substitutes, people who totally eschew life in favor of holo-life - people who'd strike us as extremely odd and perhaps insane, but wouldn't be considered that by our heroes, because weird is the norm in the 24th century.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We certainly know that engineers, scientists and medical doctors can do their academic training elsewhere (Troi, Spock, McCoy etc).

Do we? We only ever hear that Troi attended the University of Betazed; the other two have never clearly been mentioned as having studied outside Starfleet Academy. Granted, schools outside SFA are known to exist. But if you speculate that Starfleet doctors get their medical training outside SFA, there's no good proof for it yet. We have no indication that Crusher, Pulaski or Bashir studied outside SFA; we hear that McCoy was present at Ole Miss at one point, but whether as a student or perhaps as a lecturer is left unmentioned.

I thought Spock was a graduate of the Vulcan Science Acadamy? McCoy was definitely in private practice before joining Starfleet; it's why he refers to himself as 'an old country doctor'. I was just guessing with Scotty since he mentions that he worked on mining vessels for a while, I assumed he joined Starfleet after that. I'm not fully conversant with any of the characters' early histories if I'm honest!

Starfleet Acadamy does have scientific and medical divisions but I think people with degree level qualifications can simply take officer training. Isn't that also the case in the present day navy? I thought navy engineers were usually trained at outside institutions?
 
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