Thought on Kirk's character as it changed through the years...

[Chrisisall]

Thoughts on Kirk's character as it changed through the years...

A) The driven young Officer Kirk
This is who we see in the proponderance of TOS: Mostly straightforward, with a hint of hetero-obsession mixed with a degree of repressed arrested adolescence.
B) The Grown up Adult Kirk
As portrayed in TMP: He realizes his loss in taking an Admiral position, and acts to correct it, even if somewhat unconsciously.
C) The Reactive Kirk
STII gave rise to : "KHAAAAAN!" & "I don't like to lose." A slightly more morose Kirk, dealing with the rigors of sudden face-to-face fatherhood. Planned parenthood aparently isn't part of the 23rd Century.
D) The more mellow, yet determined Kirk
Star Trek III & IV, as directed by Nimoy brought kirk to a place where he could be both effective & subtle- closer to the kirk of TOS, yet more mature.
E) The silly Kirk
STV- funny at times, but more Shat than Kirk IMO.
F) A return to the past
Undiscovered Country saw a definite grab for the actual Kirk we knew from the series, albeit one who shows his years. I applaud the effort, AND Kirk's final speech!
G) For Gone
Generations, in the second act at least, seemed to throw Kirk out with the bathwater. Who WAS this guy riding horses, NOT commanding a starship & NOT getting laid in a reality where all his dreams would be immediately at hand?

So, comments?

 

[msbae]

Hetero-obsession?

 

[Agenda]

Sometimes it seems to me that "TV Kirk" and "movie Kirk" are really two different people. Throughout the series, one of his attributes is that he's almost a mythical, indestructable hero and that aspect is taken away in the movies....sometimes to poor effect (TMP and Gen) sometimes to good effect (Khan).

 

[Chrisisall]

Hetero-obsession?

Read: Skirt-chaser.

Sometimes it seems to me that "TV Kirk" and "movie Kirk" are really two different people. Throughout the series, one of his attributes is that he's almost a mythical, indestructable hero and that aspect is taken away in the movies....sometimes to poor effect (TMP and Gen) sometimes to good effect (Khan).

I thought TMP brought him to a level of just being human with a nack for being brilliant. The way he worked with Spock was excellent- granted, before Spock came aboard, I felt his character was a little weak, but I guess that's what they were going for, for better or ill.

 

[RyuRoots]

Personally, I enjoyed Kirk most in the movies, notably III-GEN. TV show Kirk was never interesting to me. He was too much of the typical Western TV serial main character just copy-pasted for the space age. In TMP he kinda came off like an asshole for half the movie, and by the second half I was struggling to stay awake. In TWoK he was better as a character, but has some of Shatner's worse hammy overacting for the character. Past this point, I find that Kirk was a more enjoyable character who was generally portrayed better.

 

[Chrisisall]

TV show Kirk was never interesting to me. He was too much of the typical Western TV serial main character just copy-pasted for the space age.

I can SO see why you say that, but when I was a kid, that was the way of things, & we liked it that way!!!

In TWoK he was better as a character, but has some of Shatner's worse hammy overacting for the character. Past this point, I find that Kirk was a more enjoyable character who was generally portrayed better.

 

[msbae]

There's nothing wrong with Kirk being a John Wayne-style cowboy in space. That was the idea.

 

[Chrisisall]

There's nothing wrong with Kirk being a John Wayne-style cowboy in space. That was the idea.

Not just a cowboy, but a responsible one. Not killing the Indians, but trying to understand them. Therein lies the difference.

 

[RyuRoots]

I know it was what was intended. That knowledge doesn't change my perception of the character. I actually don't mind that archetype in and of itself. But for a space explorer, I think a more cerebral captain (like Pike before him and Picard after) fits the bill a bit better. It's also a matter of standing out. Kirk was just an archetype in TOS for me, but he really came into his own as someone unique in the movies.

 

[Chrisisall]

Kirk was just an archetype in TOS for me, but he really came into his own as someone unique in the movies.

Granted, but the character lost some of the confidence in himself that endeared him to us older peeps that used him as a role model.
When Kirk said in Undiscovered Country "Don't tell me that flare is standard prison issue" I was like, "Yeah, baby- that's MY Kirk!!!"

 

[Nerys Myk]

There's nothing wrong with Kirk being a John Wayne-style cowboy in space. That was the idea.

Not sure If I can see the Duke playing Hornblower.

 

[msbae]

There's nothing wrong with Kirk being a John Wayne-style cowboy in space. That was the idea.

Not just a cowboy, but a responsible one. Not killing the Indians, but trying to understand them. Therein lies the difference.

I'm sure the Duke must have played at least one role where he wasn't an Indian fighter. He did make a LOT of movies...

There's nothing wrong with Kirk being a John Wayne-style cowboy in space. That was the idea.

Not sure If I can see the Duke playing Hornblower.

Was he ever in a Navy or Sea-going adventure pic?

 

[J.T.B.]

Was he ever in a Navy or Sea-going adventure pic?

Two roles come to mind immediately: One great, as a PT boat skipper in the Philippines in They Were Expendable, and one pretty good, as a early-WW2 cruiser captain and new rear admiral in In Harm's Way.

--Justin

 

[C.E. Evans]

To me, it just showed that Kirk did indeed change as he grew older. He didn't stay static, and the changes probably were brought about by changes in his personal life. By the time of Generations, Kirk had definitely become more reflective about his career, including his mistakes and regrets...

 

[Nerys Myk]

There's nothing wrong with Kirk being a John Wayne-style cowboy in space. That was the idea.

Not just a cowboy, but a responsible one. Not killing the Indians, but trying to understand them. Therein lies the difference.

I'm sure the Duke must have played at least one role where he wasn't an Indian fighter. He did make a LOT of movies...

There's nothing wrong with Kirk being a John Wayne-style cowboy in space. That was the idea.

Not sure If I can see the Duke playing Hornblower.

Was he ever in a Navy or Sea-going adventure pic?

Yes, but that doesn't mean he can play Hornblower.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Was he ever in a Navy or Sea-going adventure pic?

Two roles come to mind immediately: One great, as a PT boat skipper in the Philippines in They Were Expendable, and one pretty good, as a early-WW2 cruiser captain and new rear admiral in In Harm's Way.

--Justin

In Harm's Way is a brilliant film. My favorite of the Duke's flimography.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

To me, it just showed that Kirk did indeed change as he grew older. He didn't stay static, and the changes probably were brought about by changes in his personal life. By the time of Generations, Kirk had definitely become more reflective about his career, including his mistakes and regrets...

Thats how i've always seen it too. I've never had a problem seeing the two (tv kirk- movie kirk) as the same man.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Sometimes it seems to me that "TV Kirk" and "movie Kirk" are really two different people. Throughout the series, one of his attributes is that he's almost a mythical, indestructable hero and that aspect is taken away in the movies....sometimes to poor effect (TMP and Gen) sometimes to good effect (Khan).

I like that though, even when it doesn't work very well (like in TMP). The films came from a different time, place and had a greater capacity for a larger storytelling mindset. It was inevitable that they would try to bring some added depth to all the characters, and I think they particularly succeeded with the main three.

I don't know. The mythos of Kirk as some living legend remained in my mind even with the rather flawed Generations.

 

[J.T.B.]

Yes, but that doesn't mean he can play Hornblower.

Well, to be fair, from reading the books it's hard to picture Gregory Peck as Hornblower, or Ioan Gruffudd for that matter.

In Harm's Way is a brilliant film. My favorite of the Duke's flimography.

Not even close for me. It's a good movie, but it meanders along and gets to be kind of like a prime-time soap opera with a lot of Special Guest Stars. Patricia Neal is always great, though, and she and Duke Wayne have a nice middle-aged chemistry. It never occurred to me till now that she and Brandon DeWilde were in that movie together as well as Hud.

I like that though, even when it doesn't work very well (like in TMP). The films came from a different time, place and had a greater capacity for a larger storytelling mindset. It was inevitable that they would try to bring some added depth to all the characters, and I think they particularly succeeded with the main three.

Agreed. Stories with a strong, steady, almost infallible hero did well on TV then (Matt Dillon, Ben Cartwright, Steve McGarrett...), but they're kind of dull for movies. And I've always hated the idea of Kirk as a "legend in his own time." It's harder to root for a guy with everything going for him and nothing to prove.

--Justin

 

[msbae]

I like that though, even when it doesn't work very well (like in TMP). The films came from a different time, place and had a greater capacity for a larger storytelling mindset. It was inevitable that they would try to bring some added depth to all the characters, and I think they particularly succeeded with the main three.

Agreed. Stories with a strong, steady, almost infallible hero did well on TV then (Matt Dillon, Ben Cartwright, Steve McGarrett...), but they're kind of dull for movies. And I've always hated the idea of Kirk as a "legend in his own time." It's harder to root for a guy with everything going for him and nothing to prove.

--Justin

It would work if he felt uncomfortable with his fame, having a 'I'm just doing my job' approach. Christopher Bennet did that with a novel he wrote about the Enterprise's adventure immediately following the events of TMP.