Catch-up reading

[Elemental]

Since I've been trying to pound through a large number of older novels recently I figured I'd start a thread to discuss this content (and for anyone else to post about recent reads) rather than start a new thread each time.

Demons of Air and Darkness
Just finished this one a few days ago. As usual, KRAD brings an expert level of knowledge and detail to his writing. In particular this time I really noticed how well he helped us "get into their head" when taking the perspective of an alien character. I felt it added an extra layer into the understanding of characters, in particular Taran'atar and the Hirogen Alpha. Their similarities in being "warrior species" and yet their very different outlooks were fascinating to get absorbed into.

Being the only part of a crossover series (Gateways) that I have read, I did feel at times as if there were some details of the greater story that I was missing out on. Down the road I'll be getting to the New Frontier entry too since that novel is a part of that series (having a lot of trouble finding a decent copy for a decent price though).

I noticed a few aspects of this story that contained elements that seem like they are a little contradictory to elements covered in Enterprise episodes that hadn't aired at this point. In particular, the Orion slave woman who was freed obviously did not give the same impression of the women actually being the "leaders" of their race. Sure there are possible explanations such as this cultural aspect could have changed over time or the woman didn't give us as many details as she could have. I've noticed there is an Orion woman on the covers of one of the Mission Gamma novels which I can only assume is her so I imagine we'll be seeing more of her. Do any of the later novels attempt to reconcile this discrepency with Enterprise? I know there are some elements of the Andorian culture and homeworld that were also reimagined somewhat. I think at one time in this novel Shar mentions something about the Andorians being a very passive race which is not the position taken later by Enterprise at all.

So, all in all, an enjoyable read and I'll see how things end (in Horn and Ivory), however as I said earlier, it did feel like this story was somewhat incomplete (and I don't mean just by missing the ending) since it was a part of a crossover. I'm happy to see that from this point on, all the future post-series DS9 novels are stories more indepent in themselves (or a mini-series consistenting only of DS9-R books), at least until The Typhon Pact which will be fun to experience in its entireity.

 

[Christopher]

^As of yet, there's been no detailed examination of Orion culture which offers a reconciliation of the various depictions we've seen.

As for the Andorians, they were portrayed as a passionate warrior race in their very first appearance in TOS, "Journey to Babel," and as far as I know, they've been consistently portrayed that way ever since. So maybe you misunderstood Shar's comment.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I noticed a few aspects of this story that contained elements that seem like they are a little contradictory to elements covered in Enterprise episodes that hadn't aired at this point. In particular, the Orion slave woman who was freed obviously did not give the same impression of the women actually being the "leaders" of their race. Sure there are possible explanations such as this cultural aspect could have changed over time or the woman didn't give us as many details as she could have. I've noticed there is an Orion woman on the covers of one of the Mission Gamma novels which I can only assume is her so I imagine we'll be seeing more of her. Do any of the later novels attempt to reconcile this discrepency with Enterprise?.

Hmmm, as for the Orions, "Forged in Fire" introduced a means of overcoming the Orion female's chemical influence over males. Okay, that was Qagh's invention, not something widely available, but perhaps someone else created a means to overcome the influence- if it can be done, someone else probably worked at it (the opportunity to overturn the entire hierarchy of the Orion cartels in one go would be too big to waste). My impression is that Orion culture- or at least the pirate-gangster aspects of it (as obviously we've seen many "respectable" Orions)- is highly competitive. If you can climb the hierarchy, you do so. I assume their society was never officially matriarchal, it's simply that the females had a natural advantage and so tended to get into higher positions than the males, and so in practice males answered to females, on the whole. Maybe if a means of neutralizing that advantage was introduced, males began taking the higher positions as the females were taken by surprise (no matter how smart you are, suddenly losing the natural ability to chemically influence half your potential rivals must leave you vulnerable and somewhat unsure of yourself). Again, maybe there was no official patriarchy, just a new tendency for the males (who also have an advantage- that of physical bulk and strength) to be the ones who climbed to the top and used their underlings as playthings or disposables. This would explain the 24th century stories like the DS9 relaunch showing a male-dominated Orion culture and the earlier stories a female-dominated. If we accept that their society is not officially structured with a gender hierarchy, it's just a typical consequence of their competitive culture, then if we find some male-dominant Orion clans in the 22nd or 23rd centuries, or some female-dominated examples from the 24th, it's also okay. Not an error, simply an unusual outcome.

 

[Christopher]

^That was actually kind of my thinking too, that Qagh's anti-pheromone formulation in FiF could've broken the power of Orion females.

But what interested me about ENT's portrayal is that the women still outwardly presented themselves as slaves and property, with their true dominance being a sub rosa thing, the power behind the throne. It mirrors some things from history, like the way Hurrem essentially ruled the Ottoman Empire from the harem. Even when males hold nominal political dominance, females can have considerable influence over family matters, and since imperial succession, political alliances, and the like are often determined by marriage, lineage, and the like, that influence in the family can translate to real political influence as well. Women have thereby shaped the course of dynasties by determining who marries whom, which sons are favored for succession to the throne, and the like. They've served as unofficial advisors to monarchs, shaping policy, and sometimes have brought down rulers by seducing and distracting them. So it's possible for women to have considerable real power even in a society where they're formally defined as powerless. I liked it that ENT: "Bound" touched on that very interesting social dynamic, and I would've loved to see it explored more.

So maybe there's a way the two can be reconciled. Maybe Orion females are still dominant, but they still like everyone to think they're subordinate, because there are advantages to being an unrecognized power, to letting someone else be the figurehead while you get overlooked.

 

[Sci]

I always theorized that Orion society is highly fragmented, sexualized, and very Machiavellian. To me, it seemed perfectly natural to assume that the Orions might have been using genetic engineering in the sex trafficking trade for centuries -- creating some Orion women who are genetically engineered to have lesser intelligence and an inability to use pheromones to dominate anyone, even while other Orion women who retained the pheromonal abilities seen in ENT still exist, or exist with varying degrees of such power. I imagine that the same might well be true of Orion males.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

So maybe there's a way the two can be reconciled. Maybe Orion females are still dominant, but they still like everyone to think they're subordinate, because there are advantages to being an unrecognized power, to letting someone else be the figurehead while you get overlooked.

Indeed! In fact, (while I acknowledge we shouldn't use an individual to judge a culture), to acknowledge the OP's comments about Trier, it fits the DS9 relaunch quite well in regards to Trier's actual behaviour. Trier appears to view things in this way entirely. She acknowledges Quark as her official superior but seems to act like she's really running things. Maybe Orion females are indeed trained to be no different from their 22nd century counterparts. And her pressuring Quark to get a Dabo Boy, because (as she says) at Orion facilities scantily clad members of both sexes are used to attract customers, might suggest the whole "slave" business is still far more complex than we first assumed.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I always theorized that Orion society is highly fragmented, sexualized, and very Machiavellian. To me, it seemed perfectly natural to assume that the Orions might have been using genetic engineering in the sex trafficking trade for centuries -- creating some Orion women who are genetically engineered to have lesser intelligence and an inability to use pheromones to dominate anyone, even while other Orion women who retained the pheromonal abilities seen in ENT still exist, or exist with varying degrees of such power. I imagine that the same might well be true of Orion males.

That is also an interesting idea. It would also fit Trier's comments (and Ganz's ship in "Vanguard"), where both sexes serve as...well, if not slaves, at least sex workers and eye candy.

 

[JD]

So maybe there's a way the two can be reconciled. Maybe Orion females are still dominant, but they still like everyone to think they're subordinate, because there are advantages to being an unrecognized power, to letting someone else be the figurehead while you get overlooked.

I'm pretty sure this was how they protrayed Ganz's orginization in the last few Vanguard books. When he's out in the Omari-Ekon he appears to be the one in charge, but then when he was interacting with his lover back in their quarters, she was giving him orders.

 

[Elemental]

So maybe there's a way the two can be reconciled. Maybe Orion females are still dominant, but they still like everyone to think they're subordinate, because there are advantages to being an unrecognized power, to letting someone else be the figurehead while you get overlooked.

That was what I was considering but I'm not sure how likely it would be the Orion woman in this particular story would want to give up that power. Of course, maybe she just yearned to try something different but it seemed at the time I read it to be a little difficult to reconcile.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

So maybe there's a way the two can be reconciled. Maybe Orion females are still dominant, but they still like everyone to think they're subordinate, because there are advantages to being an unrecognized power, to letting someone else be the figurehead while you get overlooked.

That was what I was considering but I'm not sure how likely it would be the Orion woman in this particular story would want to give up that power. Of course, maybe she just yearned to try something different but it seemed at the time I read it to be a little difficult to reconcile.

Well, she was taken as a hostage. She more or less demanded Ro give her a new life afterwards. She gained favour with Ro by helping decode Malic's PADD, letting Ro get more information on the Syndicate cell she had inflitrated (if the Syndicate's going down anyway, better get off now and let the ship sink without her), and ended up practically running Quark's, which is not only an influential and strategic location, it later becomes an official embassy! I may have to read over these scenes again to be clear on detail and implication, but a reconciliation could work, I think. Trier was certainly never passive, whether she was a genuine slave or otherwise.

 

[Elemental]

^Thanks for the clarification, but please try and avoid spoilers for developments in future books; at least in replies directed specifically to me. If I wanted to find that stuff out I'm sure I could read all about it on Memory Beta.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^Thanks for the clarification, but please try and avoid spoilers for developments in future books; at least in replies directed specifically to me. If I wanted to find that stuff out I'm sure I could read all about it on Memory Beta.

So sorry! I'm really screwing up here tonight, it seems. You're quite right, usually I'm good with spoilers, I forgot this time.

 

[SpaceLama]

^That was actually kind of my thinking too, that Qagh's anti-pheromone formulation in FiF could've broken the power of Orion females.

But what interested me about ENT's portrayal is that the women still outwardly presented themselves as slaves and property, with their true dominance being a sub rosa thing, the power behind the throne. It mirrors some things from history, like the way Hurrem essentially ruled the Ottoman Empire from the harem.

I recall some people saw it as an episode that changed Orion women from an archaic 60s steriotype of submissive women, into an archaic 15th century steriotype of women as manipulative.

 

[SpaceLama]

I always theorized that Orion society is highly fragmented, sexualized, and very Machiavellian. To me, it seemed perfectly natural to assume that the Orions might have been using genetic engineering in the sex trafficking trade for centuries -- creating some Orion women who are genetically engineered to have lesser intelligence and an inability to use pheromones to dominate anyone, even while other Orion women who retained the pheromonal abilities seen in ENT still exist, or exist with varying degrees of such power. I imagine that the same might well be true of Orion males.

Apart from the genetic engineering part, this is how I reconcile the two views - some Orion women have power - some Orion men do - on the whole, their society is Machiavellian in the extreme.

I have trouble seeing the entire Orion female sex as controlling the other half - in these kind of societies, its more like 1% controlling the other 99%, not 50/50 - so I think many Orion women are just as much a victim of the Orion system as men.

Plus this is prostitution we are talking about - not the safest of jobs - I fail to see how some of these women would choose to be, say, sold off into the depths of Klingon space, with nobody to back them up within 100 light years.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I always theorized that Orion society is highly fragmented, sexualized, and very Machiavellian. To me, it seemed perfectly natural to assume that the Orions might have been using genetic engineering in the sex trafficking trade for centuries -- creating some Orion women who are genetically engineered to have lesser intelligence and an inability to use pheromones to dominate anyone, even while other Orion women who retained the pheromonal abilities seen in ENT still exist, or exist with varying degrees of such power. I imagine that the same might well be true of Orion males.

Apart from the genetic engineering part, this is how I reconcile the two views - some Orion women have power - some Orion men do - on the whole, their society is Machiavellian in the extreme.

I have trouble seeing the entire Orion female sex as controlling the other half - in these kind of societies, its more like 1% controlling the other 99%, not 50/50 - so I think many Orion women are just as much a victim of the Orion system as men.

Plus this is prostitution we are talking about - not the safest of jobs - I fail to see how some of these women would choose to be, say, sold off into the depths of Klingon space, with nobody to back them up within 100 light years.

Good points, SpaceLama.

 

[Christopher]

Plus this is prostitution we are talking about...

No, it isn't, it's sex slavery. Prostitution is a paid profession.

 

[SpaceLama]

Yeah thats what I meant - here in Europe, both are closely associated, since many 'prostitutes' working in western Europe were women trafficed from eastern Europe. I hear North America has similar problems.

 

[Christopher]

^Well, naturally any profession that's made illegal is going to end up under the control of criminals and exploiters. But it's not intrinsic to the profession. Many women forced into prostitution are essentially slaves, but that doesn't mean all sex workers are slaves. There was a time when slaves were used as plantation labor, but that didn't mean every farmer was a slave.

 

[SpaceLama]

Do you favour its legalisation and regulation? Many people in the UK would rather follow the Netherlands example, but it is interesting to find that in some of the other European countries I admire the most, such as Sweden, Norway and Iceland, it is 'more' illegal than in the UK.

 

[Christopher]

This isn't really the thread for this discussion, but yes, I think the evidence shows conclusively that legalization and regulation is more effective at protecting the safety and health of sex workers and reducing the spread of HIV and other STDs.