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William Gibson, what am I missing

I read Neuromancer twice when I bought it too, but that was because it excited me so much. The reason I'm typing here now, and that I work in IT, is Neuromancer.

In 1985, there was, in effect, no internet, certainly nothing like we have today. But people who read Gibson influenced the shape of the internet as it is today.

I would also agree entirely with Steve Roby's and Camelopard's comments, they pretty much said what I was going to say about Gibson.

The discussion about memory is interesting. I have a small library, but I think of those books as being crucial to who I am, in terms of the knowledge I possess. To lose one of those books would be to lose a chunk of memory or a skillset. In one of the other books in the Neuromancer trilogy (Count Zero or Mona Lisa Overdrive), one of the protagonists inserts software behind his ear and can straight away speak Spanish. That would be a very useful thing to have, though the thought occurs that you are then simply using someone else's pre-processed interpretation of Spanish, or philosophy, or whatever software you use - you don't interpret it ofr yourself as readily as reading from a number of sources, because (it implies in the story) when the software's removed, the knowledge goes with it. But I digress. My point is that there's about 50 books, a 'library within my library' that helped shape who I am, and I refer back to even twenty years later.

I also would recommend Burning Chrome, it's easier to see what he's getting at with the short stories in some ways. I'm also going to reread Pattern Recognition at some point soon, because what struck me about it was it's written in the style of a SF novel, but deals with contemporary technology, so that it's not SF at all, but gives that technology a different spin.
 
Indeed, but we rarely think of it that way. When people today hear of oral historians that could speak memorized lineages that took days to recite in full, they are shocked to think humans have that sort of memory capacity because we've become so used to the idea of memory-keeping technology. At the same time we maintain a conceit that we are separate from our technologies in some esoteric way. I doubt many people think of their personal computer (or their written diary) as an extension of their brain/ soul/ self, even though it is.

I don't think I agree with that. Nor do I agree that 'we became cyborgs with the first reed pressed on a plank of mud.'

Written records aren't a form of memory, or "memory-keeping technology". They're a substitute for memory, and for the sort of memory-training that allowed oral historians to perform the sorts of feats you describe.

Take me, for an example. Right now, as I type this message, I'm sitting in an office lined with books on a variety of topics--mostly history, but some philosophy and literature.

I have these books in my office partly because I have nowhere else to put them, but mostly because I need them at hand when I'm doing research, and when I'm writing lectures. I don't have the training necessary to remember more than a tiny fraction of the information contained therein.

I wasn't speaking of books someone else had written with information they developed. I was speaking of personal technology. My computer holds numerous things I have written, including notes to myself, recipes, thoughts, reminders of relevant dates, photographs of things I have experienced, etc. These are personal memory items. I have biological memories of them, but I cannot access them with the same clarity allowed by recording devices and electronic memory storage. I was running with the idea of the first reed pressed on mud, thinking of it in terms of royal record keeping (which the first reed pressed on mud would have been). I would say this is memory, and a different thing from information dissemination, a purpose recordings such as books and film also allow.

I think that, by defining cybernetics so broadly, you're both essentially inflating this term to the point that it lacks any distinctive meaning, and using it as a synonym for "technology."

My meaning was somewhat more subtle than that as I try to clarify above, though I think it is interesting to think about how our biological ways of life have been altered by technology in general. And I didn't really define cybernetics so broadly, Donna Haraway did. Ironically enough though, I am operating off of my fuzzy biological recall of that article, so if I've gotten it wrong, blame my inferior interior memory.
 
They're a substitute for memory

So a substitute for memory is not the same as a substitute for a missing leg?

I'm sitting in an office lined with books on a variety of topics

Storing information based on other people's memories of facts which in turn was based on someone else's previous memories of facts.

Books = information storage = memory. So, if books did not exist you would have no access to the knowledge in them. If to gain knowledge is to memorize, then what is the difference between knowledge recorded on a page and knowledge recorded in your brain? merely location.

Most of human knowledge is stored in books/computers in a direct effort to remember more than one single biological brain can.
 
Memory storage technology, whether it's a book or a disc or a brain chip, is not just an extension of ourselves, it's a way to share ourselves with others and with posterity; that's what really makes it wonderful.

Gibson was a great innovator, but I suppose his vision of "the day after tomorrow" seems more like "last week" to kids today. I still think he has some great ideas, though. Pattern Recognition and All Tomorrow's Parties were both entertaining and thought provoking. But I believe he said he will no longer write Science Fiction because the world has caught up with him too much.

And back in the day, the term 'Cyberpunk' competed with the term 'New Romantic' to describe this literary and intellectual movement. Personally, I think 'New Romantic' is more appropriate, not only because it follows on from 'Scientific Romance,' but because SF is truly the ultimate Romantic literature. Of course, 'Cyberpunk' proved sexier to the mass media....
 
Neuromancer didn't thrill me when it came out, even though it was pretty original. I think that at some level I didn't believe that someone who did real work, even with a computer, is ever going to be regarded as so drop dead sexy and utterly cool.

I haven't been able to cope with anything by Gibson since. I couldn't quite see the point. Any clues as to what he's about?
 
He wrote about the silliest concerns people had in the 80s, and extrapolated what the future would be based upon each and everyone one of those silly ass concepts. Of course its horrible. It was horrible then, it's horrible now.

But the fanboys will vehemently disagree.
 
Oi! It's better than that! it helped shape they very medium we're communicating by right now! Bit of respect!
 
I wasn't speaking of books someone else had written with information they developed. I was speaking of personal technology. My computer holds numerous things I have written, including notes to myself, recipes, thoughts, reminders of relevant dates, photographs of things I have experienced, etc. These are personal memory items. I have biological memories of them, but I cannot access them with the same clarity allowed by recording devices and electronic memory storage. I was running with the idea of the first reed pressed on mud, thinking of it in terms of royal record keeping (which the first reed pressed on mud would have been). I would say this is memory, and a different thing from information dissemination, a purpose recordings such as books and film also allow.

I'm still not sure I agree with this. It seems to me that you're still using the term memory too loosely. Memory is a very particular type of information storage, and written records are another.

It seems to me that to call written records 'memory' is equivalent to calling driving an automobile 'walking'. In both cases, there are both qualitative and quantitative differences that are being obscured.

I don't want you to think that I'm picking on you in particular. I have been at odds with my colleagues for the ways they use the word 'memory' for years now. Cultural historians, for example, talk of 'popular memory' when what they really mean is 'popular historical imagination.'

They're a substitute for memory
So a substitute for memory is not the same as a substitute for a missing leg?

No.

What I said was: a substitute for a missing leg is not the same as a leg.

Do you, for example, usually call crutches and wheelchairs "legs"?

I'm sitting in an office lined with books on a variety of topics
Storing information based on other people's memories of facts which in turn was based on someone else's previous memories of facts.

Books = information storage = memory.
I'm sorry, but that's obviously wrong. It's equivalent to arguing that crutches = personal mobility = legs.

In fact, you're committing two classic logical fallacies here: the fallacy of the undistributed middle, and the fallacy of the over-narrow definition.

To see how this commits the fallacy of the undistributed middle, let's put your claim in the form of a syllogism:

Books are a form of information storage (A = B)
Memory is a form of information storage (C =B)
Therefore, books are memory (A = C)

This, as I said, is equivalent to arguing that

Crutches provide a form of mobility (A = B)
Legs provide a form of mobility (C = B)
Therefore, crutches are legs (A = C)

This type of reasoning would only be valid if you add a third premiss, such as any form of information storage is memory, and everything that provides a form of mobility is legs. But since that's what you're trying to prove, its inclusion would constitute circular reasoning.

To see how this commits the fallacy of the over-narrow definition, let's re-word it a little:

Anything that stores information is memory
A book stores information
Therefore, a book is memory

This is equivalent to arguing that

Anything that is red and round is an apple
The planet Mars is red and round
Therefore, the planet Mars is an apple

The correct thing to say is that both memory and books are forms of data storage, just as both apples and the planet Mars are members of the class of things that are red and round.

Since the rest of your post is founded on these same errors, I don't think I need to respond to it.
 
He wrote about the silliest concerns people had in the 80s, and extrapolated what the future would be based upon each and everyone one of those silly ass concepts. Of course its horrible. It was horrible then, it's horrible now.

But the fanboys will vehemently disagree.

:rolleyes:

This, on the other hand, is called poisoning the well.
 
Neuromancer didn't thrill me when it came out, even though it was pretty original. I think that at some level I didn't believe that someone who did real work, even with a computer, is ever going to be regarded as so drop dead sexy and utterly cool.

Yeah, he was ahead of the curve by a few years on that one. Remember the days of Mondo 2000, Future Sex, and the early years of Wired, when the Internet boom was kicking off?

Any clues as to what he's about?
These days, he's about looking at the world we live in as science fiction. His recent novels aren't a million miles removed from some of J.G. Ballard's novels: not science fiction, but looking at the modern world through a science fiction writer's eyes.

He wrote about the silliest concerns people had in the 80s, and extrapolated what the future would be based upon each and everyone one of those silly ass concepts. Of course its horrible. It was horrible then, it's horrible now.

Assuming you're not just doing a drive-by... how old were you when Neuromancer was published? What were you reading then, and what do you read now? For that matter, what did you think was important (or not silly) then?

It's entirely possible to dislike Neuromancer without disregarding its cultural importance.
 
He wrote about the silliest concerns people had in the 80s, and extrapolated what the future would be based upon each and everyone one of those silly ass concepts. Of course its horrible. It was horrible then, it's horrible now.

But the fanboys will vehemently disagree.

Oi! It's better than that! it helped shape they very medium we're communicating by right now! Bit of respect!

alright, before this gets out of hand, dial it back some. A good way to respond, even if you dislike Gibson, is by answering the questions Steve Roby posed above.
 
Well, one of his book titles is my nickname here. His works have shaped my view of Science Fiction (together with Star Trek and the first three Star Wars movies - yeah, it's an odd mix). I first read Neuromancer in my teens in the 90s and it didn't seem outdated to me. Then again, the internet wasn't as ubiquituous as it is today. I recently reread it and it's still an interesting world presented in the book.
I also love Gibson's take on the near future and the present, so maybe Idoru/All Tomorrow's Parties would be a better starting point for newcomers. I was very impressed with Pattern Recognition and Spook Country that play in the present but maintain a somewhat futuristic outlook on things.
I'd also recommend his co-production with Bruce Sterling, The Difference Engine. To me, it's the defining book of Steampunk.
 
Well, one of his book titles is my nickname here.
Count Zero interrupt! :D Actually, Count Zero was the first Gibson novel that I read, when it was serialized in Asimov's. Then I went back and read Neuromancer and have read just about everything he wrote up to All Tomorrow's Parties.
 
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