If they'd only left out the tranporter malfunction scene, it would have been a perfect movie.
Non-fans of TWoK....
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
Your Mileage May Vary.
And CorporalClegg has some valid points about the offscreen happenings in TWOK. Honestly, I'd never really thought about some of those, but I can't particularly disagree. And I think TMP is far from a perfect movie even if the transporter accident scene was cut, tho I DO think it was stupid and kinda pointless and the movie would be better without it. It just felt so like "Oh look! Something dangerous and unexpected!" with my reaction being "Uh...okay." Shock value for the sake of shock value, incidentally, falls flat on its face.
Shakespeare's histories were titled whoever the king is in the play, even though that character may have had almost nothing top do with the play.
Or you're watching the movie looking for a different kind of movie. The story is pretty basic. I don't see how people don't get it. Why do you think the Kobiashi Maru story is there? And the story of Kirk again? Don't you see how it all ties to the main story? Kirk cheating his way out of death -- first with the Kobiashi Maru, then at the end of Act II on the Genesis planet (no coincidence that that's when we finally find out how Kirk beat the KM test, and we immediately know how he'll get off the Genesis planet).
Kirk is the main character. The story broken down is the classic emotion vs. emotion plot. The real conflict is within Kirk. Like in Hamlet, the real conflict was not between Hamlet and his Uncle (who is so undeveloped, we don't even know for sure he's a murderer), but between Hamlet and himself; the real story is Hamlet's desire for revenge vs. his indecisiveness. Or look at TNG's "Tapestry." The real conflict isn't Picard vs. time, or Picard vs. a Nausican, it's Picard's self-preservation vs. his pride.
In STII, the real conflict isn't Kirk against Khan, it's Kirk's overwhelming need to win at all costs vs. his inability to face the consequences. Without that conflict, there is no story.
FWIW, I'm also a big fan of TMP, so that puts me in the minority.
Then Sonak would have been the science officer. The whole point of that scene was to kill him off and make way for Spock's return.
Whaaa? I thought the transporter accident was awesome. It was like you could finally see the consequences of some of this technology and that it is not, in fact, completely infallible.
^
Yeah. It's pretty much plays into the whole man v. machine bit that was one of the main themes of the film.
Yeah. It's pretty much plays into the whole man v. machine bit that was one of the main themes of the film.
And still leaving David Gautreaux's Xon available if Nimoy didn't want to do a sequel to TMP.
I think that one of the reasons that Khan fairs so well in the Star Trek movie countdown is that there are only 11 movies, including the newest one. That's not a lot to choose from. When you've only got 11 films from which to pick, there's just not much debate about which of those 11 is going to be the best. Does Khan have plot holes? yeah...sure it does. Are there special effects problems? sure. Character issues? You betcha!
Would you say that Khan is among the greatest movies of all time, in general? No, probably not (there was at least one person in this thread that did say it was their favorite movie of all time). Compared to Citizen Kane, Casablanca, etc, it's not that great but compared to only the other 10 Star Trek films? It's a pretty impressive bit of cinema!
Don't get me wrong here. I love Star Trek and I find good things in all of the films. I include V and X in that. I liked all of them for what they were and i would tend to agree that II is pretty high up in the list of "best Star Trek movies".
If you think about it, if you were to create a list of the "Top Ten Star Trek Movies ever", you'd only be leaving ONE MOVIE off that list...and it wouldn't be Khan regardless of the plot holes, character issues, illogical actions of the crew, etc.
Would you say that Khan is among the greatest movies of all time, in general? No, probably not (there was at least one person in this thread that did say it was their favorite movie of all time). Compared to Citizen Kane, Casablanca, etc, it's not that great but compared to only the other 10 Star Trek films? It's a pretty impressive bit of cinema!
Don't get me wrong here. I love Star Trek and I find good things in all of the films. I include V and X in that. I liked all of them for what they were and i would tend to agree that II is pretty high up in the list of "best Star Trek movies".
If you think about it, if you were to create a list of the "Top Ten Star Trek Movies ever", you'd only be leaving ONE MOVIE off that list...and it wouldn't be Khan regardless of the plot holes, character issues, illogical actions of the crew, etc.
^
But to say it's the best of the Trek films really isn't saying very much. TMP is really the only one that has a true cinematic feel to it. (nuTrek may have had they not cut the budget on some of the sets and slowed the pace down a bit.) Even it has its fair share of problems.
TMP also happens to be the only one where they actually seek out a new life form in a place mankind has never been--well, I guess TFF sort of does to.
I've said for the longest time Trek should stay on the small screen. That's why.
But to say it's the best of the Trek films really isn't saying very much. TMP is really the only one that has a true cinematic feel to it. (nuTrek may have had they not cut the budget on some of the sets and slowed the pace down a bit.) Even it has its fair share of problems.
TMP also happens to be the only one where they actually seek out a new life form in a place mankind has never been--well, I guess TFF sort of does to.
I've said for the longest time Trek should stay on the small screen. That's why.
I know what you mean- it's like the difference between being at a convention, and having a few friends over to your house.
TMP was big, the rest were kinda small (Actually 4 & 5 had their cinematic-feeling moments
) up until the new one.Scotty wasn't answering the communications due to whatever reason, and probably didn't know the severity of the situation. Spock helped fix the warp drives in TMP. Spock was probably more qualified than the trainees to fix it, and understood the situation they were in.
That's what i have told myself.
That's what i have told myself.
Only by virtue of TMP being a lullaby in film form. Otherwise it would be, at least for me.
And another thing about TWOK...is it just me, or do the events of Star Trek III kind of render the one powerful, emotional part of TWOK null? Spock's death was the one big emotional scene in that film, but knowing "Oh, he's fine after all." after that....it sort of undermines the movie in retrospect.
It's not just you.
^
Certainly not.
For all the crap I've given TWOK, I could tare TSFS a new one. God, I hate that movie.
Certainly not.
For all the crap I've given TWOK, I could tare TSFS a new one. God, I hate that movie.
I just kind of like to imagine that 2 & 3 don't exist- bottom line: killing Spock & giving Kirk a son were bad decisions IMO. THEN killing his son & giving Kirk a Spock????My brain hurts just trying to imagine a place where this all made some sense.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
The director's title of choice for ST2 was THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY, as in 'death.'
That makes it Kirk's movie, all right. It is him having to deal with age and death and the whole damn thing.
The movie is COMPLETELY about Kirk. Everything from Khan's side is Khan's perception or misperception ABOUT Kirk ... Khan has nothing driving him except Kirk. And still most of the film is about Kirk's other issues -- command, age, relationships ... Khan is just a gun that gets fired, a more memorable one than Kruge (in execution, anyway.)
Are you kidding? Khan and Kruge are identical in execution. Idiotic "I AM EEEEVIIIIIIIL" villains that thankfully get killed off in their respective films. Khan is an interesting IDEA, but a ridiculously bad execution.
THANK YOU!!!
trevanian
Rear Admiral
THANK YOU!!!
Khan's portrayal only goes sour after Kirk gets off the planetoid. Then the eye-bugging gets a bit much.
Kruge, on the other hand, is just godlike in his powers of deduction, like he has the scriptwriter in his pocket. Makes you think the movie should be about him instead of the humans, and to be honest, I ain't gonna go there for that.
